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Thread: The Gracie's Discuss "Should 'Chokeholds' Be Banned"

  1. #11
    TOLERATED BY STEPHANIE LittleLebowski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hapkiconcepts View Post
    Hi all, i'm new to the forum. I'm a BJJ & MMA practitioner as well as and LEO/DT-Instructor. I like what the Gracie's say but think of the Vascular restraint as a "rainy day" option. I have a Combatives/ Control Tactics page I set up for other LEO's instructor's in my agency. see attach for my full point of view...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GadmjODjm8w


    my channel if your interested...

    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC9R...kVSkHbRM2qgF9g

    thanks all & stay safe.
    @runcible, your thoughts?

  2. #12
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    I agree with the video. I have to ditto what @FrankinCA said. The safety seen in BJJ is the participants are trained and there is usually somebody close by watching.
    A71593

  3. #13
    Irony Connoisseur Totem Polar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hapkiconcepts View Post
    Hi all, i'm new to the forum. I'm a BJJ & MMA practitioner as well as and LEO/DT-Instructor. I like what the Gracie's say but think of the Vascular restraint as a "rainy day" option. I have a Combatives/ Control Tactics page I set up for other LEO's instructor's in my agency. see attach for my full point of view...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GadmjODjm8w


    my channel if your interested...

    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC9R...kVSkHbRM2qgF9g

    thanks all & stay safe.
    Welcome to the forum. Anyone who likes the Wire and Bosch is probably going to fit right in!

    (I checked out several of your vids; cool channel.)

  4. #14
    Played Judo as a kid and I believe I lost my first bout by tapping out of a choke hold. Probably won a few by getting the other guy to tap out of a choke. Choke holds are common, actually easier than the more esoteric techniques. Thousands of choke holds every day in dojos all over the USA. Another thing denied to LEO's, one less thing to try before going to the pistol. Sort of hard to tap out of a gunshot wound.

  5. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by DueSpada View Post
    Played Judo as a kid and I believe I lost my first bout by tapping out of a choke hold. Probably won a few by getting the other guy to tap out of a choke. Choke holds are common, actually easier than the more esoteric techniques. Thousands of choke holds every day in dojos all over the USA.

    I think it's important to note a few things when applying this analogy. Those thousands of choke holds applied in dojos all over the USA are being done in a controlled environment with a supervising instructor who is trained to notice the symptoms of someone no longer conscious in that chokehold and is ready to intervene at a moments' notice when someone has lost consciousness.

    I've seen at least a dozen instances over a decade in BJJ classrooms at multiple locations in multiple states in the US where an instructor has rushed over to tell a white or blue belt that their training partner has lost consciousness and they need to let go "RIGHT NOW!" I've heard lectures given to those students and had instructors vent to me behind the scenes with comments like "Geez, how long do you think they out for and still getting choked before I noticed?" (class of 20-50 students on the mat). Heard white and blue belts being asked by instructors "didn't you notice they were out?" with students embarrassed to admit they were so focused on keeping the choke tight they had no idea their opponent had lost consciousness. Had there been no supervision or instruction, I have no idea how long those holds would have continued on the unconscious opponent.

    Not to mention, the tapping out situation to end the hold is not generally an allowable street or police scenario.

    Keep in mind the average BJJ blue belt has been training for 1-5 years (almost no one at a reputable BJJ school gets a blue belt in under a year. Many, including myself took two years to get a blue belt and then spend 3 additional years at that rank) while spending 3-10 hours per week training BJJ. And this failure to release the hold on an unconscious training partner still occurs dozens (at least) of times across the US every year in those same dojos Fortunately, in those cases, there is a supervising instructor or ref to provide a failsafe. Most police officers have not had 200-1000 hours of supervised instruction in applying chokeholds nor could we reasonably expect them all to add that amount of training to all of their other aspects of job related training, IMO.



    I say the above as a former competitive brown belt with a decade of hard training in the sport of BJJ. I have been choked unconscious a few times over those years and similarly rendered others unconscious numerous times. Although plenty of people notice when someone has lost consciousness, plenty of others fall into tunnel vision and auditory exclusion and do not.

  6. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by NoTacTravis View Post
    Not to mention, the tapping out situation to end the hold is not generally an allowable street or police scenario.
    Food for thought: PF's very own @Chuck Haggard talked on a recent episode of the Civilian Carry Radio podcast (Episode 147) about a Kansas police agency local to him and their stats on putting on LVNR. I'll let him speak for himself if he so chooses, but what I remember hearing is that 85% of the time that officers locked in the holds and were ready to put someone to sleep, they did not actually have to take it to that point. Put in that compromising position and starting to feel the pressure, suspects became compliant.
    Gaming will get you killed in the streets. Dueling will get you killed in the fields.
    -Alexander Hamilton

  7. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Hot Sauce View Post
    Food for thought: PF's very own @Chuck Haggard talked on a recent episode of the Civilian Carry Radio podcast (Episode 147) about a Kansas police agency local to him and their stats on putting on LVNR. I'll let him speak for himself if he so chooses, but what I remember hearing is that 85% of the time that officers locked in the holds and were ready to put someone to sleep, they did not actually have to take it to that point. Put in that compromising position and starting to feel the pressure, suspects became compliant.
    The same could be said for upwards of 85% of that same class of white and blue belts. The problem is that the even at a 99% rate the math works out to dozens unconscious people being choked after already losing consciousness. As to not having to put people to sleep and gaining compliance before a loss of consciousness, even on the mat where everyone should know to tap I have rolled with numerous new or visiting spazzes that rather than tap decided to slam me, scratch me, bite, me or crotch grab rather than tap. Probably equally frequent to all of those are the people that are too proud to tap and go unconscious (most often the "I'm gunna be a UFC champion type). And that is only with their pride at stake. Plenty of people just freak out when they start to go out and "think they are going to die" (on the BJJ mat). Pretty much any blue belt has seen examples of everything I have mentioned above.

    The point is not the vast quantity of time something works, it's if the failure rate and consequences of those failures are acceptable, IMO. What is the acceptable rate of malfunction occurrence per thousand rounds in your gun for instance? 85% ? And out of a thousand malfunctions, what is the most likely consequence to that malfunction? Would you say that if 85% of the time an officer pulled his pistol he did not have to pull the trigger an appropriate reason to downgrade the potential lethality of the service weapon?

  8. #18
    Irony Connoisseur Totem Polar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NoTacTravis View Post
    The same could be said for upwards of 85% of that same class of white and blue belts. The problem is that the even at a 99% rate the math works out to dozens unconscious people being choked after already losing consciousness. As to not having to put people to sleep and gaining compliance before a loss of consciousness, even on the mat where everyone should know to tap I have rolled with numerous new or visiting spazzes that rather than tap decided to slam me, scratch me, bite, me or crotch grab rather than tap. Probably equally frequent to all of those are the people that are too proud to tap and go unconscious (most often the "I'm gunna be a UFC champion type). And that is only with their pride at stake. Plenty of people just freak out when they start to go out and "think they are going to die" (on the BJJ mat). Pretty much any blue belt has seen examples of everything I have mentioned above.

    The point is not the vast quantity of time something works, it's if the failure rate and consequences of those failures are acceptable, IMO. What is the acceptable rate of malfunction occurrence per thousand rounds in your gun for instance? 85% ? And out of a thousand malfunctions, what is the most likely consequence to that malfunction? Would you say that if 85% of the time an officer pulled his pistol he did not have to pull the trigger an appropriate reason to downgrade the potential lethality of the service weapon?

    To zoom out on this idea even further, what’s a better outcome? A serious failure, say,1 percent of the time (to pick a number out of the air), or not having the tool at all and moving to 50 percent shootings instead? Setting aside the afore mentioned Chuck Haggard’s observation of one dept using LVNR a quarter of a million times with no deaths, injuries, or payouts, even a nominal failure rate of 1 percent beats the alternative of having to move to deadly force on a sizeable chunk of the remaining 99 percent, barring the option. Perfect being the enemy of the good and all that.

  9. #19
    Interesting point you raise and I can see it appropriately punching some holes in my general argument. First I have to say that I'm a huge proponent of the tools offered by BJJ. But I do think the Gracie's make a point with where the tool is classed on the spectrum as used with the expertise of the group as a whole.


    The problem I see in the portion of the debate I'm trying to avoid with respect to law enforcement use is that it seems that more subject matter experts consider it dangerous when applied by people without many hundreds of hours of training. And then a lot of white and blue belts thinking it's all fine. Typically, on the mat, that break is very telling.

    I'd be very curious to see a poll that lined up the opinions on the choke danger cross referenced against those that do not train BJJ, white, blue, purple belts, etc..., those who have taught on the mat.

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