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Thread: The Gracie's Discuss "Should 'Chokeholds' Be Banned"

  1. #1
    Cerebral Vortex Guerrero's Avatar
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    The Gracie's Discuss "Should 'Chokeholds' Be Banned"

    "What's Occam's razor?"
    "Probably a razor that belongs to some dude named Occam."

  2. #2
    Irony Connoisseur Totem Polar's Avatar
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    I saw that video at some earlier juncture. While they make great points about police needing more in-service training, Iím not sure that I agree with their ultimate stance.

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    The other concern that raises in my mind is that if I used a choke to sleep someone who is unarmed in a self defense situation, I could be charged with using lethal force.

    Yes, the best option is to never get taken down, or to seize the initiative and do the takedown. Though some takedowns (suplex, harai goshi, blast double) would, using this logic, rise to the level of lethal force.

    All due respect to the Gracies, it isn't lethal force. It's just not that simple.

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  4. #4
    Irony Connoisseur Totem Polar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 45dotACP View Post

    All due respect to the Gracies, it isn't lethal force. It's just not that simple.
    Tangential, but on another forum, in a galaxy far far away, I got taken to task by a retired doc, more or less: ďIíve been in medicine my entire life, and Iíve never heard of ďTCCCĒ, you are not making any sense throwing made up acronyms around.Ē

    The point being, someone can be both a distinguished expert in their field, and out of their lane at the same time with just the slightest shift in context. And I guess thatís all Iíll say, lest I venture ever further out of my own lane, and let others more qualified argue points dating back to at least 1882.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by 45dotACP View Post
    The other concern that raises in my mind is that if I used a choke to sleep someone who is unarmed in a self defense situation, I could be charged with using lethal force.


    I think that is way overblown. It is the H2H equivalent of "if you change anything on your gun, they will charge you with being a gun nut". Just as that is easily beaten in court, so is using a choke. And you will have an easier time tin court because you did not kill him, so you are already ahead of the curve. There is so much documentation of verifiable sources to refute anything like this to a judge or jury.

    Would it be better to not get charged? Sure, but that may happen even if you do everything correct. Nothing is going to ensure that you walk away with backslaps from the cops.
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    Agree with Cecil...

    Ryan Hall was involved in an altercation. He used BJJ and didnít hurt the guy..

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    I saw the Ryan Hall vid. He definitely had the calmness and composure needed to show just how effective BJJ is for controlling a resisting opponent.

    I guess I just wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of an over zealous prosecutor screaming that not even police officers are allowed to use chokeholds, so using one in self defense is excessive and dangerous. Especially given all the trouble I went to to learn BJJ and take advantage of the most effective way to beat someone much larger and stronger than me.

    I suspect you're right though Cecil. It's probably more of a theoretical Boogeyman than reality.

    Either way, I'll still be trying to figure out this BJJ thing.

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    @45, I get your concern. But the good part of BJJ, is the experience you build up tapping and getting tapped out. Iíve choked people out. Itís weird but you feel their body go limp. You know to back off. Experience and your professor or coach are watching.

    So I think you will act with restraint. Your partners will give feedback. Meatheads donít last long in BJJ

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by FrankinCA View Post
    @45, I get your concern. But the good part of BJJ, is the experience you build up tapping and getting tapped out. Iíve choked people out. Itís weird but you feel their body go limp. You know to back off. Experience and your professor or coach are watching.

    So I think you will act with restraint. Your partners will give feedback. Meatheads donít last long in BJJ
    I think that here in lies the problem with law enforcement. The amount of academy training that is dedicated to H2H and marksmanship... is limited. Especially considering that we are well into a generation or so of folks who have NEVER had to handle themselves in a physical confrontation, much less a potentially lethal one. How many officers have the time, $$ and dedication to train in firearms, H2H and others topics on their dime? Probably very few (those are already training and most likely aren't the type of deuche like the MN guy). That means that very few will get that experience of dealing with being choked out, choking someone out under controlled circumstances. Their first run at it will be while they are crapping their pants involved with their first real fight for their life. That is a situation where that whole knowing enough to be dangerous comes into play.

    I'm not suggesting that choke holds or any other technique should be banned or taught. I'm far from an expert in the area of H2H or law enforcement, so that decision should be left to the experts in those fields and not the political experts either. If we chose to teach someone a set of skills and label them a professional, we should teach those skills to mastery, not just minimal understanding. IMO we have a LOT of things in society that are at a minimal understanding level vs true mastery.

  10. #10

    Control Tactics, FTEP, & general L.E. training

    Quote Originally Posted by Guerrero View Post
    Hi all, i'm new to the forum. I'm a BJJ & MMA practitioner as well as and LEO/DT-Instructor. I like what the Gracie's say but think of the Vascular restraint as a "rainy day" option. I have a Combatives/ Control Tactics page I set up for other LEO's instructor's in my agency. see attach for my full point of view...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GadmjODjm8w


    my channel if your interested...

    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC9R...kVSkHbRM2qgF9g

    thanks all & stay safe.

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