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Thread: The Gracie's Discuss "Should 'Chokeholds' Be Banned"

  1. #21
    I'm an older, non-practicing Blue Belt, and I don't have any answers.

    I've tapped and been tapped with choke holds. My instructor tells a story about a student of his in a real altercation who let his opponent up in after he tapped, and who then stabbed him; if it's real and he taps, then he's still functioning.

    I've also rolled with a guy who thinks it's unmanly to tap; have to be really careful with that idiot, and I hope he gets over his hangups before he gets hurt.

    But as to not having other tools, I'm not sure that's true. I don't know if South Korean police have handcuffs or not, but I see plenty of pics of them using a wrist lock come-along, oppo's forearm tucked neatly under their armpit. Kimuras are pretty effective at immobilizing. Handcuffs are even better and I don't think you need a choke hold when oppo has his hand cuffed behind him; if you're afraid he'll run, then zip tie his ankles.

    As I said, I'm older, grey-haired, and overweight, and am unlikely to be provoked. If I do have to use these holds, it's unlikely to be a Kimura or a wrist lock or an arm bar; how would I let him go and get clear if I have no backup? Cops have backup.

  2. #22
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    I'd rather get choked than tased or beaten by a nightstick.

    But I'd also rather not get yanked to the ground by my neck by someone who half remembers their academy training. I did a deep dive on strangle induced strokes and hyoid damage, and they seem to almost always involve way more pulling and crushing to the neck than a properly done and controlled rnc. Lot of incidents during police *training* compared to BJJ gyms in general.

    This policy is overkill, though.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by ford.304 View Post
    I did a deep dive on strangle induced strokes and hyoid damage, and they seem to almost always involve way more pulling and crushing to the neck than a properly done and controlled rnc. Lot of incidents during police *training* compared to BJJ gyms in general.
    Care to share the study you're referencing? Sounds worthy of a read.
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  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by ford.304 View Post
    I'd rather get choked than tased or beaten by a nightstick.
    I would too, provided that it was by someone who knows when to let go. I might take my chances with the taser and nightstick if the alternative is a guy that holds that RNC for five minutes after I stop moving.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hot Sauce View Post
    Care to share the study you're referencing? Sounds worthy of a read.
    I'll share the few sources I found.

    The tl;dr is that there are no good studies on prevalence in the sport, and strokes from vascular dissection occurs in all kinds of sports. I even found case studies when it occurred from golf...

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5678212/

    Goes over the mechanism and causes of stroke from carotid dissection, and how it can relate to BJJ techniques.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/bjj/comment...jj_scientific/

    Links to several other papers discussing prevalence in other sports.

    https://medium.com/@bizjitsu/my-stro...y-ff01f4924d68

    Is a blog where is collecting anecdotal stories of strokes from choking. At least in my eyes, a commonality in many of these is the *roughness* of the choke that caused the dissection. Chokes applied with muscle, not control.

    https://www.familyjusticecenter.org/...ion-to-stroke/

    The presentation linked here is also an interesting starting off point from the "other side." This "Dr. Smock" seems to be the go-to expert for anyone wanting to ban choke holds. I'm not incredibly impressed by his "research" but it contains several more links to specific incidents where officers stroked after their infrequent grappling training.


    The NCBI article indicates that poor health is a significant risk factor. To me, reading between the lines and taking my personal knowledge of "white belts" and secondhand knowledge of "cops," it seems likely that many of the events described by Dr. Smock were at least related to a couple somewhat out of shape novice practitioners going a little too rough on each other.

    Additionally, in talking to my instructor and reading comments on r/bjj, it seems that most practitioners with many years of experience know *someone* who had a strangulation-induced stroke. That said, that's a ton of people doing BJJ and getting choked daily, so it's not that high of a base rate.

    I came to the general conclusion for my training that it is something to keep in the back of your mind if you are debating muscling your way out of a rough choke, but not a primary concern. However, it does seem as though it would present an increased risk when applied to a general population of potentially overweight and out-of-shape suspects being controlled by minimally trained and hyped-up officers.

    In any case, any training on it *needs* to include an emphasis on immediate release once the suspect is out and under control, and policy should be against it if you haven't been trained. Putting it in the same category as shooting someone is nuts, though.

  6. #26
    Very Pro Dentist Chuck Haggard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NoTacTravis View Post
    The same could be said for upwards of 85% of that same class of white and blue belts. The problem is that the even at a 99% rate the math works out to dozens unconscious people being choked after already losing consciousness. As to not having to put people to sleep and gaining compliance before a loss of consciousness, even on the mat where everyone should know to tap I have rolled with numerous new or visiting spazzes that rather than tap decided to slam me, scratch me, bite, me or crotch grab rather than tap. Probably equally frequent to all of those are the people that are too proud to tap and go unconscious (most often the "I'm gunna be a UFC champion type). And that is only with their pride at stake. Plenty of people just freak out when they start to go out and "think they are going to die" (on the BJJ mat). Pretty much any blue belt has seen examples of everything I have mentioned above.

    The point is not the vast quantity of time something works, it's if the failure rate and consequences of those failures are acceptable, IMO. What is the acceptable rate of malfunction occurrence per thousand rounds in your gun for instance? 85% ? And out of a thousand malfunctions, what is the most likely consequence to that malfunction? Would you say that if 85% of the time an officer pulled his pistol he did not have to pull the trigger an appropriate reason to downgrade the potential lethality of the service weapon?
    The stat for LVNR in KCMO is that 85% of the suspects it's used on are at level 1 or 2, and are NOT rendered unconcious.

    I hear a LOT of "yeah, buts!" from people who have theory that has already been disproved by facts over the past few decades.

    Your post is yet another case of this.
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  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Haggard View Post
    The stat for LVNR in KCMO is that 85% of the suspects it's used on are at level 1 or 2, and are NOT rendered unconcious.

    I hear a LOT of "yeah, buts!" from people who have theory that has already been disproved by facts over the past few decades.

    Your post is yet another case of this.
    I'm confused by your response to my post.

    1) We are using the 85% statistic in the same manner. From my reading perspective this is quite clear in my post. But it is always possible that I am not seeing from the outside reader's perspective. In my post I am making a point to address the "other 15% of the time" with regards to how just incomplete an 85% rate is when dealing with technique that can and has resulted in deaths.

    2) This is NOT a case of "yeah but". This is a "Ive been there, seen that, am speaking from extensive personal experience, and am consistent with dozens of subject matter experts, including the two in the video that is the subject of this thread." I'm not sure how you discard my post as a simple "yeah but."

    3) In an effort to better understand where you are coming from in the context of this thread regarding the Gracie's discussing chokeholds I ventured over to the page linked to your signature. Admittedly, I didn't take an extensive tour of the site but I couldn't find anything detailing your BJJ experience or training there? Are you a BJJ blackbelt? If not, how long have you been training in grappling, and what credentials do you have in BJJ, nogi, 10th Planet, Catch Wrestling, Sambo, or equivalent?

    ^Mainly asking the above because I can't think of any of the high level grapplers I know discounting a post like mine as "disproven theory". Unfortunately, the initial video of the thread by the Gracie' is in response to dozens of chokehold deaths over those past decades you reference. Those are the "facts" that are driving the basis of the discussion with regards to the Gracies putting out a video on the subject. If their "theory" was disproven by facts there wouldn't be the deaths over those decades to point to.




    Now, I should note, I have not ventured into whether these chokeholds should be "allowed" or not. I have addressed the level of training required to avoid errors occurring when putting the choke into use. I have noted that in my thousands of hours of training in chokeholds I have firsthand witnessed people failing to realize their training partner was unconscious numerous times. Those are the "real world facts" I am basing my post on. And I should note that I seem to be consistent with the true subject matter experts on the matter of chokeholds.

  8. #28
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    Is there a profession more experienced in chokes than BJJ? A police agency that allows chokes for less than deadly force has how many thousand less chokes per year than a BJJ school per year? How many hundreds of hours less training? A law enforcement agency may have 4-8 hours per year of defensive tactic training which is about 1-2 weeks of training for a new BJJ student. My agency does 1 hour per month of DT's and 1 hour a month of firearms training-for a total of 24 hours combined defensive tactics/firearms. The state requires a minimum of 8. Other states and locations vary but I'm interested in locations and agencies that support chokes for less than deadly force what their experience knowledge is compared to the Gracie's in the video and what they would say in response.
    A71593

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