You have a good point. I’d be interested to hear the grounds for the warrant and the seizure. For someone who’s been charged and indicted, I can see it - but when neither has happened?Originally Posted by JoeSixPack
But, I’m not a lawyer, and I don’t play one on TV.
No, he doesn't have a point, because his statement is horse shit.
Read what Dan M wrote in post 370.
Firearms used in self defense incidents become evidence if / when a criminal investigation results.
You are putting the cart before the horse. "Search Warrants" more correctly "Search and Seizure Warrants" exist to search for and seize potential evidence of a crime . Evidence and facts gathered during the course of an investigation are then evaluated to see whether probable cause exists to justify charges via criminal complaint and/or indictment.
Only the rifle used in the incident under investigation was seized. There is no indication of whether or not he has any other firearms but even if he doesn't have other firearms, there is nothing stopping him from going out and buying another right now. Nor is there anything at this time precluding him from defending himself again if the need arises.
We have a legal system not a justice system. You could shoot a pedophile raping an 8 year old while holding a knife to the kid's throat and officially it would be investigated as a homicide with you as the suspect.
Under Missouri law, self defense / “stand your ground” is an affirmative defense. Essentially, this means the defendant, while potentially conceding the underlying allegations, presents facts which, under state law, justifies or excuses any criminal liability.
Last edited by HCM; 07-11-2020 at 02:40 AM.
Out of curiosity, what's the evidentiary value of the rifle in a case like this?
In a murder or robbery or whatever, you'd want the gun to do ballistics testing, take fingerprints, etc.
But in this case, what's the objective? Find his prints on the gun? Given the video, him denying he was carrying a rifle doesn't seem likely?
Genuinely curious what evidence the gun provides here.
Question I don't know the answer to - can you "stand your ground" when protesters may not be on your property and you are actively pointing a gun at them (like the female involved was). Sorry, not trying to wade into a decisive debate, I just am not sure of the legalities here. To me, the female seemed incredibly reckless, more so than the male, but I legitimately know nothing here.
Proof it's a real gun and not a non-firing replica.
In a real short version: Video is enough PC for a warrant, but juries can be convinced a reasonable doubt exists that the item in the video was not a real firearm if the only evidence it's a gun is photo/video. There's no video of it being fired. There's no shell casings, etc. It *could* be a non-firing replica, but it's probably a real gun. Hence PC for a warrant, but wanting more evidence to put in front of a jury to bridge that gap of PC to beyond a reasonable doubt.
No, the State decided that two particular guns were evidence. Guess what happened to my gun when I shot somebody and was never charged let alone convicted? It sat in time out for 13 months. Nothing precluded me from owning or purchasing other firearms. Same applies to them. Nothing affected my right to self-defense. Same applies to them. It's a *very* common theme among legal trainers and even here on PF that you need copies of your guns because if you use one it will become evidence. This is that, not what you said.
Sorta around sometimes for some of your shitty mod needs.
Speaking *in general* and recognizing that there are exceptions in some state: Duty to retreat doesn't apply to your own home so stand your ground/duty to retreat probably isn't an issue. If the force used was reasonable will be the issue
Sorta around sometimes for some of your shitty mod needs.
FWIW, in Florida at least, it doesn’t matter if it was real or not. Aggravated assault (last I checked we don’t have “assault with a deadly weapons” here) is basically in the eye of the beholder.
Hence someone who, say, pointed a convincing toy gun at someone in a passing car could potentially find themselves arrested on a charge of aggravated assault. I have the legal bills to prove it.
Does the above offend? If you have paid to be here, you can click here to put it in context.
Thanks @DanM, @HCM and @BehindBlueI's. I spoke in ignorance and stand both corrected and better informed.
Duuuuhhh ...thanks!
This has already been discussed extensively up thread.
In most states you have no duty to retreat on your own property so stand your ground isn't an issue, rather it's a matter of whether it was justified as self defense. Both are affirmative defenses in MO.
Another factor here is that the crowd were already trespassers on private property not on a public street.
Last edited by HCM; 07-11-2020 at 08:11 AM.
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