'Keep moving!' Couple brandish an AR-15 and a handgun at protesters

[GJM]

STANDARD DISCLAIMERS FROM MY PREVIOUS POST(S) IN THIS THREAT RE REPRESENTATION ETC.

Based on my training, experience and discussion with fellow attys from both sides of the state (KC and STL)

The consensus is that even if they are charged with a felony or serious misdemeanor, (and that is by no means a foregone conclusion) they will not be convicted by a jury in STL city. You only need one juror to hang the case and that is a near certainty given the facts/circs reported re the size/temperament of the crowd, the private nature of the property and timing of the breached gate.

This case is a trial and an appeal all the way to the USSC for as long as it takes, as many times as it takes, from the defense point of view. That is a tremendous amt of time/talent/treasure for the prosecution to spend, particularly more than 1x.

These folks have been a significant part of the STL legal community for 30 plus years. I repeat, underestimating their influence and legal acumen is a grave mistake.

I do not know this to be true. The following is an educated guess.

I would wager every judge that would hear this case has been to the house for a legal/holiday/community event and/or heard/attended/hosted a legal presentation by these folks and/or knows someone who was represented well by these people.

Question for the lawyers — we have been discussing “they” or “them.” Wouldn’t charges be separate, and perhaps different? I haven’t studied all the video, but From what I did see, she seemed closer to the crowd, and doing the muzzling, where he was more in the background.

[KellyinAvon]

Those two people are exactly the kind of people we should be standing behind with our full support.
A lot of fence sitters can relate to a pudgy middle-aged couple defending their dream home from an angry horde of rioters while wearing a pink Polo and Dockers.
I guarantee if the guy was fully "kitted up" like he stepped out of a tactical Instagram shoot he'd already have charges filed on him and Aunt Becky in the suburbs down the road wouldn't care (in fact she'd probably be just as scared of a tatted up kitted up 3%'er as she is of the commie mob).
Tribalism is a thing, and Becky can relate to and sympathize with pink Polo man and his sensibly dressed wife.

Wait, what? Is Becky in book club with Karen? I'm so confused!!

[wrmettler]

Over the years, I've told many would be gun owners that instead of proposing or discussing situations about when to shoot and when not to shoot, they should gather a group of like minded gun owners, pool some money, and hire an experienced (Expensive) criminal attorney for a meeting to discuss that state/county/city's gun laws. Gun Owners need to know the laws of their individual venues so they can decide for themselves the circumstances of legal gun handling, actual shootings, and preparing for the legal consequences of a shooting. People need to think this stuff through.

One of the reasons I've recommended this option is that your expensive criminal attorney would know the person who enforces the laws of said state/county/city, the local prosecuting attorney. That person is a very important part of the legal process and implements the policies of the office. Witness the manner in which the police officer was charged in Atlanta.

So, I give you Kimberly Gardner the St. Louis prosecutor. In 2016 she was hired by (i.e. supported by) George Soros, so she obviously has a liberal bent. Apparently, she has released all the protesters arrested in the recent local protests without charges, refused to comply with court orders regarding disclosure of her office's management, and most recently described the McCloskey's actions as a violent assault against the First Amendment and the rights of peaceful protestors.
She has the discretion of whether to charge and what to charge. What do you think she's going to do?
Probably she'll charge assault on behalf of every member of the protest, and expose the McCloskeys to about 100 years in jail.
And they are going to trial anticipating a hung jury because of one juror?

Given the fact that the third picture in the first post shows a guy with camera equipment more expensive that the firearms brandished by McColskeys, I think there is sufficient photo evidence for personal injury lawsuits by every person in the march against the McCloskeys. We'll see how much the local judges like these people when they decide whether to combine all the lawsuits into one litigation to save time and money or force them to defend separate litigations.
He is a successful personal injury attorney. I assume he knows that insurance coverage will not cover intentional acts such as assault with a firearm. Any liability insurance company will make every effort to avoid insuring them for this mess. He will probably end up paying for his defense himself.

And, if he either is found guilty or takes a plea bargain, he'll lose his license to practice law. Felons can't be lawyers. So, there goes his income and probably his big house.

To expose themselves to this criminal and civil exposure was profoundly stupid.

[JRB]

Over the years, I've told many would be gun owners that instead of proposing or discussing situations about when to shoot and when not to shoot, they should gather a group of like minded gun owners, pool some money, and hire an experienced (Expensive) criminal attorney for a meeting to discuss that state/county/city's gun laws. Gun Owners need to know the laws of their individual venues so they can decide for themselves the circumstances of legal gun handling, actual shootings, and preparing for the legal consequences of a shooting. People need to think this stuff through.

One of the reasons I've recommended this option is that your expensive criminal attorney would know the person who enforces the laws of said state/county/city, the local prosecuting attorney. That person is a very important part of the legal process and implements the policies of the office. Witness the manner in which the police officer was charged in Atlanta.

So, I give you Kimberly Gardner the St. Louis prosecutor. In 2016 she was hired by (i.e. supported by) George Soros, so she obviously has a liberal bent. Apparently, she has released all the protesters arrested in the recent local protests without charges, refused to comply with court orders regarding disclosure of her office's management, and most recently described the McCloskey's actions as a violent assault against the First Amendment and the rights of peaceful protestors.
She has the discretion of whether to charge and what to charge. What do you think she's going to do?
Probably she'll charge assault on behalf of every member of the protest, and expose the McCloskeys to about 100 years in jail.
And they are going to trial anticipating a hung jury because of one juror?

Given the fact that the third picture in the first post shows a guy with camera equipment more expensive that the firearms brandished by McColskeys, I think there is sufficient photo evidence for personal injury lawsuits by every person in the march against the McCloskeys. We'll see how much the local judges like these people when they decide whether to combine all the lawsuits into one litigation to save time and money or force them to defend separate litigations.
He is a successful personal injury attorney. I assume he knows that insurance coverage will not cover intentional acts such as assault with a firearm. Any liability insurance company will make every effort to avoid insuring them for this mess. He will probably end up paying for his defense himself.

And, if he either is found guilty or takes a plea bargain, he'll lose his license to practice law. Felons can't be lawyers. So, there goes his income and probably his big house.

To expose themselves to this criminal and civil exposure was profoundly stupid.

So what you're saying is that so long as your local DA/Prosecutor is a scumbag, your constitutional right to defend yourself from a mob that broke into your property with hostile intent is null and void because: DA things?

Seems like we need to bring back the ol' tar and feathering, or a more acceptable modern equivalent. What's it take to get recalled as an elected DA?

[Tensaw]

Wow... So, we are at a point in this society where a mob gets to tear down a gate, trespass on private property, and probably make threats against other citizens. But the guy who steps up and (very awkwardly) tries to defend against the mob is the one who has to worry about prison time. Am I getting this right? If this indeed the case, well,... words fail me.

Note: The Lawn Lawyers tactics sucked and they did not make a smart move handling it the way they did. I’m just saying that the notion that the mob doesn’t bear some responsibility in all this just makes me shake my head.

[momano]

I am a 65 year old retired union construction laborer and an unabashed conservative. I've lived and worked in St Louis metro since 1976. If you are really interested in what's happening, google Tucker Carlson on Fox News from an hour ago and watch his interview with the guy. Kim Gardner, the prosecutor from St Louis City, elected with the help of George Soros, is going to be a big part of the way this story will play out. I'm angry, frustrated, and sad, that this is being narrated as anything other than some American citizens who want to protect their very lives and property. I suspect I would not feel comfortable with being their close friends, but, My God, they were just trying to pursue life, liberty, and happiness.

[BehindBlueI's]

I’m just saying that the notion that the mob doesn’t bear some responsibility in all this just makes me shake my head.

Welcome to the cops' world. We've been dealing with the "it's your fault no matter what" for awhile now. Some shitbird flees a traffic stop and crashes into a minivan, is it shitbird's fault or the cop who tried to stop him? Right.

This is just a continuation of that and now it's getting more attention because it's affecting more people. In this case, people with influence and money who can spread their narrative and who aren't the nation's villains at the moment. People who can afford to mount a PR blitz and who still get to live in a gated community.

Welcome to zero defect world, too. You better do every thing right every time. Doctors fuck up and kill someone, pilots fuck up and kill someone, truck drivers fuck up and kill someone, nobody calls for prison sentences. Cops, though, no you've got to be zero defect. Now you do, too. At least locally, citizens have been given the benefit of the doubt and not charged for things like shooting at people fleeing, etc. Now that's shifting. You get to have the same scrutiny we have dealt with but you don't even have a union to help you.

So, yeah, you guys do you. Just don't say nobody warned you what a shit show you're in for until the pendulum swings back. Which it probably will, sooner or later.

[JodyH]

Do you want "in for a penny, in for a pound" self defense against mobs?
Because activist DAs and Judges is how you end up with people going all in.
"After the first one, the rest are free" along with a "you're not arresting me today" is a dangerous match to strike.

[JodyH]

I'm starting to wonder just how far away from "Los Pepes" we are in certain areas of the country...

[El Cid]

Welcome to the cops' world. We've been dealing with the "it's your fault no matter what" for awhile now. Some shitbird flees a traffic stop and crashes into a minivan, is it shitbird's fault or the cop who tried to stop him? Right.

This is just a continuation of that and now it's getting more attention because it's affecting more people. In this case, people with influence and money who can spread their narrative and who aren't the nation's villains at the moment. People who can afford to mount a PR blitz and who still get to live in a gated community.

Welcome to zero defect world, too. You better do every thing right every time. Doctors fuck up and kill someone, pilots fuck up and kill someone, truck drivers fuck up and kill someone, nobody calls for prison sentences. Cops, though, no you've got to be zero defect. Now you do, too. At least locally, citizens have been given the benefit of the doubt and not charged for things like shooting at people fleeing, etc. Now that's shifting. You get to have the same scrutiny we have dealt with but you don't even have a union to help you.

So, yeah, you guys do you. Just don't say nobody warned you what a shit show you're in for until the pendulum swings back. Which it probably will, sooner or later.

This! So much this!