Wheelgun Challenge V!

[Bruce Cartwright]

My department issued Rem 125g SJHP for their 357 Mag carrying Deputies. We had a number of revolver shootings while I was the firearms instructor and when I could I went along with Homicide, who handled the investigations, to see what happened and figure out if there was something we could learn from the events.

First one I remember was a weapon's qualified Corrections Officer, assigned to prisoner transport (court, doctors, etc). An intruder broke into his home and when he heard the commotion, jumped up with a 4" M-66 in hand and went to the bedroom door. He told me later, when he saw the bad guy in the hallway he slammed the door thinking it would better protect his wife. As he was telling her to call 911 the door crashed against him. As he was going down he got off one shot through the hollow core door and into said bad guy. He said he couldn't get his arm out from under him and the door before our bad guy ran out of the house, only to lie down under the neighbor's bushes where responding officers found him. This was 35 years ago and I frankly don't remember if the guy died of his single wound or not.

Second was kind of like the first in that only one shot was fired. A deputy in a rural area made a traffic stop on a felon who had violated his parole numerous times. This bad guy knew he was going to jail so he followed the deputy as he turned to go run the name. He jumped the deputy and as they rolled around on the dirt/gravel road he got the deputy's 5-cell Kel-lite away from him and started beating him on the head and shoulders. The deputy told me later he knew he was going unconscious so he reached under his arm-pit and fired one round into some portion of the assailant's torso. When I asked him why he only fired one shot he said he said there wasn't anyone there to shoot at after the first round, and then he passed out. Responding officers found him unconscious in the road and the bad guy dead.

The final 357 Mag shooting during my tenure as firearms instructor involved a detective carrying a 2.5" M-66. He and a uniform deputy were watching the back of a motel while other detectives, backed by SWAT, served a warrant on an armed felon. Our two heroes didn't really think they were going to get involved as the only windows on the back of the building were small bathroom windows. Sure enough the intrepid felon managed to crawl out of his bathroom window and drop to the alley behind the building. when confronted by the two deputies he pulled out a 4" 38 Special and pointed it at them. As might be expected they opened fire. The uniform guy missed from about 10 yards and hit the back end of a Porsche 911. Yes the county did pay for that one. The detective, made of sterner stuff and a bit closer put two rounds of 357 Mag in the suspects torso. Said suspect turned ran about 10 yards, put his revolver to his head and took his own life. WE speculated the none center of mass hits combined with the reduced performance of the Rem 125 SJHP out of the 2.5" barrel resulted in the failure to stop.

FYI,
Dave

Dave T:

Thanks for providing the detailed accounts of the officer involved shootings with the 125 grain magnum load. Information like this is worth preserving. The last shooting you described reinforces the age old lesson that good hits are what stop fights. Please note, I mean no disrespect to the involved officers. Sometimes, despite your best efforts, bad outcomes occur and as Pat Rogers once said: "The Bad Guy gets a vote."

Bruce

[Bruce Cartwright]

Back in those far off days the department only had five 870s at the main office. Gun savvy deputies, and those Vietnam vets who had been shot at, always grabbed them for their shifts so there weren't any long guns to draw from. At that time only SWAT had rifles.

Two things I did as firearms instructor was develop and run shotgun and rifle qualifications. For the first time in the departments history deputies could qualify to carry personal long guns, with the departments blessing and backing. I did the same thing with off duty weapons, another departmental first.

Good grief, that was a long time ago! (LOL) And Bruce, my apologies for the thread drift.

Dave

Dave:

No apologies necessary. Good on you for getting your troops the gear they needed to fight and prevail. Thank you for having the fore thought and tenacity to properly equip your troops.

Bruce

[Bruce Cartwright]

Suggestions for future articles by Bruce (or any other revolver experts) should they be so inclined to write:

More in-depth discussion of sights and sight improvements, since these options are often limited for revolvers.

Holster selection and other concealment pointers. Finding good holsters for revolvers seems to be increasingly difficult, particularly since an increasing percentage of Kydex holster makers do not believe (probably correctly) that extensive revolver offerings would be profitable. Do you find yourself dressing around the gun more so than if you carried a semiauto?

The finer points of managing a DA trigger squeeze, including but not limited to the merit or lack thereof of cocking the hammer for more precise shots, as well as helping those with weak hands and/or medical conditions of the hand in squeezing a DA trigger.

BillSWPA:

Thanks for the ideas. I will take a look at them and see if I can shake something out that covers the need.

As to concealing wheelguns, I pretty much have gone the custom route. My favored kydex maker, Slate Creek Tactical, has done several holsters for me on a custom basis. In leather, Milt Sparks Holsters is my go to shop. I don't think I dress around the gun differently. Let me think on that a bit. This is a great idea for a post/article.

I may do a post on the revolver draw stroke and how it differs from semiautos. We'll see if it pans out.

As to double action work, I pretty much run DA all the way out to 50 yards. I sometimes go single action beyond that, like when I am shooting at extreme ranges. My short answer to enhancing DA accuracy is to shoot lots of bullseye courses DA only. Again, this is a neat topic for an article. Let me kick this around a bit.

Bruce

[Totem Polar]

I have four 357s. A 2" k6, a 2.5" 19, a 3" K6 DA/SA and a 4.2" Match Champion. I fell in love with 357s in 1968. I have mulled the ammo question with these different revolvers and have come to the conclusion that for self defense purposes against bipeds, the 125 Golden Saber 357 load from Remington does it for me. 1080fps out of my Kimber 2", 1122fps out of my 3" Kimber, and 1148fps out of my Match Champion. The load groups well with all 4 firearms and it is managable as it is a reduced load 125 grain screamer. Factory spec state 1250fps but the load velocities that are published above are out of a conservative Chrono; they are comparable to other data on this load.

This load is also fairly inexpensive.

Wore a 357 to town today and felt well armed.

I’m really an old-school 145 grain silvertip guy, but I have to admit that the medium velocity 125 GS is a fantastic fit for smaller .357s. I built up a stash of golden saber over the last couple of years precisely because it was controllable, and grouped incredibly well right at POA out of both a 3” K6S and a new model King Cobra. Urban or Rural: I wouldn’t feel completely outclassed with a 3” .357.

@Dave T, putting a hole in a Porsche 911 is a sin.

[Dave T]

The finer points of managing a DA trigger squeeze, including but not limited to the merit or lack thereof of cocking the hammer for more precise shots, as well as helping those with weak hands and/or medical conditions of the hand in squeezing a DA trigger.

I went through the academy with a M 28-2 and carried it and a M-58 until I got off probation. That same month I qualified with a 1911 in 45 ACP and never looked back as long as I wore a badge. Still, being a gun guy and liking competition I started 2-1/2 years (3 seasons) of NRA PPC competition. First with a old K-38, then after the first go-round with a Bull-gun built by a famous pistol smith from Louisiana who's name I can't think of right now. (getting old stinks)

Anyway to answer Bill, like Bruce's idea of shooting Bullseye DA only, shooting the old PPC course from 7 yards back to 50 yards: standing; right & left barricade; kneeling; setting; and prone will make a revolver shooter out of you. When I started with the K-38 I shot single action at 50. But when my relay wasn't shooting I watched the guys on the Governor's 20 and they all shot DA, all the time. And there wasn't any "staging" of the trigger trying to turn a DA stroke into a SA let off. Those guys all pulled straight through, even at 50 yards. The 10/X ring was roughly the size of a Coke can and they didn't miss all that much. Try getting 24 consecutive hits on a Coke can DA at 50 yards. If you can do that you can shoot on my team any time.

As as someone said earlier (or maybe on another revolver thread) the skill with a DA revolver doesn't erode as fast or as completely as pistol skill does. Years after my PPC days I started shooting once a month in a steel combat match with revolvers (a M24-3 and a M25-2, both with 5" barrels). After another hiatus IDPA came along and I shot in their revolver class for a couple years, and even a few IROC matches 10 or 12 years ago. It never took all that long to get my DA trigger control back to reasonable levels even after a year or three away from wheel guns. That's always been my experience.

Dave

[Bruce Cartwright]

I went through the academy with a M 28-2 and carried it and a M-58 until I got off probation. That same month I qualified with a 1911 in 45 ACP and never looked back as long as I wore a badge. Still, being a gun guy and liking competition I started 2-1/2 years (3 seasons) of NRA PPC competition. First with a old K-38, then after the first go-round with a Bull-gun built by a famous pistol smith from Louisiana who's name I can't think of right now. (getting old stinks)

Anyway to answer Bill, like Bruce's idea of shooting Bullseye DA only, shooting the old PPC course from 7 yards back to 50 yards: standing; right & left barricade; kneeling; setting; and prone will make a revolver shooter out of you. When I started with the K-38 I shot single action at 50. But when my relay wasn't shooting I watched the guys on the Governor's 20 and they all shot DA, all the time. And there wasn't any "staging" of the trigger trying to turn a DA stroke into a SA let off. Those guys all pulled straight through, even at 50 yards. The 10/X ring was roughly the size of a Coke can and they didn't miss all that much. Try getting 24 consecutive hits on a Coke can DA at 50 yards. If you can do that you can shoot on my team any time.

As as someone said earlier (or maybe on another revolver thread) the skill with a DA revolver doesn't erode as fast or as completely as pistol skill does. Years after my PPC days I started shooting once a month in a steel combat match with revolvers (a M24-3 and a M25-2, both with 5" barrels). After another hiatus IDPA came along and I shot in their revolver class for a couple years, and even a few IROC matches 10 or 12 years ago. It never took all that long to get my DA trigger control back to reasonable levels even after a year or three away from wheel guns. That's always been my experience.

Dave

Dave:

Good point about shooting at 50 yards. Shooting at that distance tends to separate the adults from the children so to speak.

Being a big fan of the S&W Model 25-2, you have piqued my interest: A 25-2 with a five inch barrel? I would love to see a photo if possible. Any details about the gun (and for that matter the 24-3)? Thanks in advance.

Bruce

[Dave T]

Bruce,

Back in the mid-1990s I came across used, 6" versions of both of these models within a couple days of each other. So close I had to put the second one (I think it was the 44 Special) on layaway. I have a good friend who retired from 26 years of Federal service (BP & INS) to become a pistol smith, and a very good one at that. I sent him the first revolver with instructions to cut the barrel to 5" and do a complete action job. While waiting for that one to finish I ordered a 1AT holster from Milt Sparks Leather and kept making payments on the other revolver.

The first gun was done about the same time as the holster and as I type this I'm pretty sure it was the 45 ACP. I had a tripple, open top speed loader pouch left over from the PPC days. It had been a loose fit for my K-frame Dades but it held Moonclipped 45 ACPs perfectly. I started shooting in a monthly local steel combat match and having a dandy time. As a side note, I found cast bullets of .454" diameter, loaded in the thinner R-P cases, shot extremely well in that 25-2.

When it was paid off I sent the 24-3 off to my smith asking he do the same things to it he'd done with the M25-2. When finished they were nearly identical except for the tapered barrel on the 44 Special. I initially tried the "Skeeter Load" but the recoil was a bit fierce for just competition. I dropped from a 250 @ 900 to a 240 @ 800 and found it more controlable.

A couple times I paid a double entrance fee and shot the stages twice, once with the M25 and again later with the M24. Even with Safariland Comp IIs there was no way to keep up with the reloads of the 45 ACP Moonclips. I always beat myself with the M25-2.

As my disability worsened I had to give up competing every weekend and the revolver shooting went away. I was still carrying 1911s at the time and felt the now limited competition I could manage needed to be with my carry guns (Commander and Lt Wt Officer's ACP). I've never managed having safe-queens so eventually those two 5" revolvers went away. Sometimes I regret it but I can't compete at all now so I wouldn't be shooting them anyway. Life stumbles onward through the fog.

Dave

[SCCY Marshal]

...Will be playing with some of the 130 grain HST projectiles I ordered from Midway during their blemish sale. Stuff them in 38 Special cases to the cannelure...

This project crashed on the runway. The bullets are very snug once they hit the step-down in the chamber. To seat the cartridge, I have to shove it the final bit into place. Shame given how cool they look. At least I plunk tested my die set-up dummies before loading any live.

[Bruce Cartwright]

This project crashed on the runway. The bullets are very snug once they hit the step-down in the chamber. To seat the cartridge, I have to shove it the final bit into place. Shame given how cool they look. At least I plunk tested my die set-up dummies before loading any live.

SCCY Marshal:

You may have better luck loading the 130 grain HST if you use wadcutter brass. The wadcutter brass has a thinner case wall to accommodate the long, cylindrical wadcutter bullet. I do a fair bit of reloading and have segregated all of my 38 Special wadcutter brass because it is easier to reload. Hopefully that's an easy fix for your issue. That said, I don't reload ammunition for defensive purposes, just practice ammo.

Bruce

[03RN]

SCCY Marshal:

You may have better luck loading the 130 grain HST if you use wadcutter brass. The wadcutter brass has a thinner case wall to accommodate the long, cylindrical wadcutter bullet. I do a fair bit of reloading and have segregated all of my 38 Special wadcutter brass because it is easier to reload. Hopefully that's an easy fix for your issue. That said, I don't reload ammunition for defensive purposes, just practice ammo.

Bruce

I think he meant the bullet ogive was to...big?