Wheelgun Challenge V!

[SCCY Marshal]

I have a hunch they'll hold together but fold back more and sooner, increasing penetration. Also predict they'll possibly lose a little weight if some lead sloughs off in the process. Beside being a fun project, I think a 130 grain bullet at 158 grain velocity should be easier on the frame, especially being a K versus Skelton's N. And the jacket should help it hold together to help make up for the lost weight.

But mostly, they'll look neat and life's too short not to get freaky with modernized reverse hollow-base wadcutters.

[03RN]

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....anic-Gel/page5

Thats an interesting point. Maybe going faster will help

[BillSWPA]

I believe this video was posted in another thread here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1YTOV4dYLQE

[Dave T]

My department issued Rem 125g SJHP for their 357 Mag carrying Deputies. We had a number of revolver shootings while I was the firearms instructor and when I could I went along with Homicide, who handled the investigations, to see what happened and figure out if there was something we could learn from the events.

First one I remember was a weapon's qualified Corrections Officer, assigned to prisoner transport (court, doctors, etc). An intruder broke into his home and when he heard the commotion, jumped up with a 4" M-66 in hand and went to the bedroom door. He told me later, when he saw the bad guy in the hallway he slammed the door thinking it would better protect his wife. As he was telling her to call 911 the door crashed against him. As he was going down he got off one shot through the hollow core door and into said bad guy. He said he couldn't get his arm out from under him and the door before our bad guy ran out of the house, only to lie down under the neighbor's bushes where responding officers found him. This was 35 years ago and I frankly don't remember if the guy died of his single wound or not.

Second was kind of like the first in that only one shot was fired. A deputy in a rural area made a traffic stop on a felon who had violated his parole numerous times. This bad guy knew he was going to jail so he followed the deputy as he turned to go run the name. He jumped the deputy and as they rolled around on the dirt/gravel road he got the deputy's 5-cell Kel-lite away from him and started beating him on the head and shoulders. The deputy told me later he knew he was going unconscious so he reached under his arm-pit and fired one round into some portion of the assailant's torso. When I asked him why he only fired one shot he said he said there wasn't anyone there to shoot at after the first round, and then he passed out. Responding officers found him unconscious in the road and the bad guy dead.

The final 357 Mag shooting during my tenure as firearms instructor involved a detective carrying a 2.5" M-66. He and a uniform deputy were watching the back of a motel while other detectives, backed by SWAT, served a warrant on an armed felon. Our two heroes didn't really think they were going to get involved as the only windows on the back of the building were small bathroom windows. Sure enough the intrepid felon managed to crawl out of his bathroom window and drop to the alley behind the building. when confronted by the two deputies he pulled out a 4" 38 Special and pointed it at them. As might be expected they opened fire. The uniform guy missed from about 10 yards and hit the back end of a Porsche 911. Yes the county did pay for that one. The detective, made of sterner stuff and a bit closer put two rounds of 357 Mag in the suspects torso. Said suspect turned ran about 10 yards, put his revolver to his head and took his own life. WE speculated the none center of mass hits combined with the reduced performance of the Rem 125 SJHP out of the 2.5" barrel resulted in the failure to stop.

FYI,
Dave

[BillSWPA]

My department issued Rem 125g SJHP for their 357 Mag carrying Deputies. We had a number of revolver shootings while I was the firearms instructor and when I could I went along with Homicide, who handled the investigations, to see what happened and figure out if there was something we could learn from the events.

First one I remember was a weapon's qualified Corrections Officer, assigned to prisoner transport (court, doctors, etc). An intruder broke into his home and when he heard the commotion, jumped up with a 4" M-66 in hand and went to the bedroom door. He told me later, when he saw the bad guy in the hallway he slammed the door thinking it would better protect his wife. As he was telling her to call 911 the door crashed against him. As he was going down he got off one shot through the hollow core door and into said bad guy. He said he couldn't get his arm out from under him and the door before our bad guy ran out of the house, only to lie down under the neighbor's bushes where responding officers found him. This was 35 years ago and I frankly don't remember if the guy died of his single wound or not.

Second was kind of like the first in that only one shot was fired. A deputy in a rural area made a traffic stop on a felon who had violated his parole numerous times. This bad guy knew he was going to jail so he followed the deputy as he turned to go run the name. He jumped the deputy and as they rolled around on the dirt/gravel road he got the deputy's 5-cell Kel-lite away from him and started beating him on the head and shoulders. The deputy told me later he knew he was going unconscious so he reached under his arm-pit and fired one round into some portion of the assailant's torso. When I asked him why he only fired one shot he said he said there wasn't anyone there to shoot at after the first round, and then he passed out. Responding officers found him unconscious in the road and the bad guy dead.

The final 357 Mag shooting during my tenure as firearms instructor involved a detective carrying a 2.5" M-66. He and a uniform deputy were watching the back of a motel while other detectives, backed by SWAT, served a warrant on an armed felon. Our two heroes didn't really think they were going to get involved as the only windows on the back of the building were small bathroom windows. Sure enough the intrepid felon managed to crawl out of his bathroom window and drop to the alley behind the building. when confronted by the two deputies he pulled out a 4" 38 Special and pointed it at them. As might be expected they opened fire. The uniform guy missed from about 10 yards and hit the back end of a Porsche 911. Yes the county did pay for that one. The detective, made of sterner stuff and a bit closer put two rounds of 357 Mag in the suspects torso. Said suspect turned ran about 10 yards, put his revolver to his head and took his own life. WE speculated the none center of mass hits combined with the reduced performance of the Rem 125 SJHP out of the 2.5" barrel resulted in the failure to stop.

FYI,
Dave

Given the video I posted and the shootings described here, I wonder about the barrel length at which the .357 has a distinct advantage over a 9mm? Clearly a 4" barrel would provide an advantage, and a 2" barrel will not. 2.5" is suspected of not providing that advantage. Do things start improving at 3" or is more required?

[Dave T]

Bill,

I know that we chronographed our issue ammo every year and the Rem 125g SJHP always produced ~1425 fps from the 4" M66s. This is a fuzzy memory but I think it developed something like 1250 fps or maybe 1275 fps from the 2.5" M-66s. I always thought 1400 fps was the threshold for real "Magnum" performance. YMMV!

Dave

[SCCY Marshal]

...The final 357 Mag shooting during my tenure as firearms instructor involved a detective carrying a 2.5" M-66. He and a uniform deputy were watching the back of a motel while other detectives, backed by SWAT, served a warrant on an armed felon...

Do you remember if there was a reason at least one of them didn't (couldn't?) draw a long gun?

[vtfarmer]

Bill,

I know that we chronographed our issue ammo every year and the Rem 125g SJHP always produced ~1425 fps from the 4" M66s. This is a fuzzy memory but I think it developed something like 1250 fps or maybe 1275 fps from the 2.5" M-66s. I always thought 1400 fps was the threshold for real "Magnum" performance. YMMV!

Dave

I've used that as my carry load since the late 80's. Occasionally I run some over the Chrony. Current running averages are: 2 1/4" Sp101= 1275 fps: 3" GP=1365 fps; 4' GPs= 1442 fps.

On the performance end, late in the Marshall Study he was saying that he didn't see any difference in results between barrel lengths, so he lumped them all in together. Mas Ayoob was running his own study at the same time, and if my memory is working right, he said something similar. If he sees this, maybe he'll comment.

[BillSWPA]

Suggestions for future articles by Bruce (or any other revolver experts) should they be so inclined to write:

More in-depth discussion of sights and sight improvements, since these options are often limited for revolvers.

Holster selection and other concealment pointers. Finding good holsters for revolvers seems to be increasingly difficult, particularly since an increasing percentage of Kydex holster makers do not believe (probably correctly) that extensive revolver offerings would be profitable. Do you find yourself dressing around the gun more so than if you carried a semiauto?

The finer points of managing a DA trigger squeeze, including but not limited to the merit or lack thereof of cocking the hammer for more precise shots, as well as helping those with weak hands and/or medical conditions of the hand in squeezing a DA trigger.

[Dave T]

Do you remember if there was a reason at least one of them didn't (couldn't?) draw a long gun?

Back in those far off days the department only had five 870s at the main office. Gun savvy deputies, and those Vietnam vets who had been shot at, always grabbed them for their shifts so there weren't any long guns to draw from. At that time only SWAT had rifles.

Two things I did as firearms instructor was develop and run shotgun and rifle qualifications. For the first time in the departments history deputies could qualify to carry personal long guns, with the departments blessing and backing. I did the same thing with off duty weapons, another departmental first.

Good grief, that was a long time ago! (LOL) And Bruce, my apologies for the thread drift.

Dave