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Thread: Wheelgun Challenge V!

  1. #1

    Wheelgun Challenge V!

    Folks:

    This is the fifth installment in this series. I carried a full size revolver for 6 months as my primary defensive handgun. In my case, I used a Ruger Match Champion GP-100 stainless steel revolver in .357 magnum. In this installment I am going to talk about power or more particularly stopping power with regard to full size service revolvers. Caveat: I am not a ballistician, hard scientist etc. These are my views and opinions. Take them with a grain of salt.

    Of late, there is a renewed interest in revolver shooting, at least among cops and folks of my age range. Maybe it is because these folks want to revisit their youth or some other sentimental reason. Whatever the cause, there is a renewed interest in “round” guns. One of the things that gets kicked around is the relative power of defensive rounds carried by these folks in their revolvers. The FBI recently experienced a caliber change and I think it is illustrative in terms of revolver shooters.

    Within the last 5 years, the FBI has adopted the 9 mm Parabellum round as its new duty round. The theory that the folks at the FBI Ballistic Research Facility put forth in supporting the adoption of the 9mm is that bullet technology has advanced across the board significantly and even more so with new 9mm loads. I tend to agree the current versions of the 9 are way better than those of twenty or even ten years ago. I routinely carry a 9mm pistol without reservation. That said, is the 9 the equal of the 40 and 45? I don’t know. When I was a New Agent Trainee at the FBI Academy, I was issued the Sig P226 in 9mm. It was a great gun, but I was under no illusion about the fact that there were better cartridges for law enforcement. As soon as I could, I voted with my feet and bought a Glock 23 in 40 S&W and shortly thereafter, a Glock 21 in 45 ACP. I carried the Glock 21 for upwards of 15 years on the Job. I pointed that gun (as well as shotguns and M4s) at a pile of people and damn near had to shoot several with the 45. I had confidence in the 45. I witnessed the FBI transition from the 9mm to the 40 and now back to the 9mm. Even during the 40 caliber period, there was a significant group of agents who favored the 45. So, my question in all of this is what happened to all of the “weeds” law enforcement collectively plucked from the Lord’s Garden (To paraphrase Pat Rogers) with the 45 and 40? Did the passage of time somehow wipe the effectiveness of those rounds from the slate? I don’t believe so. The 9 may have gotten better, but that doesn’t diminish the effectiveness of the 40 and 45.

    So, while the 9 is all the rage today, it wasn’t always so. There may be less of a difference today between the 9, 40, and 45, but I still think there is a difference, albeit a smaller one. The same thing appears to be happening in the revolver world. Newer 38 Special loads are better, but there is still a difference between today’s best 38 loads and 357 magnum loads. Some folks tend to think that the 38 Special in the +P version is the ultimate gunfighting round in revolvers and that you really don’t need anything else. I am not so sure about that. For the period when cops actually carried and fought with revolvers, the 38 Special was almost universally viewed as the minimum you would want to carry among those in my circle of acquaintances. Almost every cop I encountered wanted more powerful rounds. The 357 magnum was the king where I lived. The results were deemed very effective in numerous shootings. Almost no one wanted to carry the 38 Special if they could get a 357 magnum. Cops also wanted to get semiautos because they were being designed to be reliable out of the box.

    From my perspective, bigger, more powerful rounds were more effective at stopping bad guys in the past. I believe the heavier rounds still outperform the 38 and 9 but the difference is smaller today. The question that each shooter has to answer is whether the increase in effectiveness of newer 38 Special bullet technology is outweighed by the gains of going to magnum ammo. Each round had its positives and negatives and you learned to work around each. For the 357, it was the large flash, loud report and heavy recoil. For those down sides, you were rewarded with excellent stopping power. The 45 was viewed as being pretty much equal to the 357 and most folks I knew carried one or the other. Even during the revolver only period in the Bureau, if an agent could qualify with 357 magnum ammo and had the necessary approval, he could carry it instead of the 38 Special load. Again, many of the heavy hitters who were serious about agent survival did this. These were the same folks who actually carried a backup gun, practiced on their own time and tended to use long guns to shoot mopes who needed shooting.

    The point of all this? When I started carrying my Match Champion daily for the Wheelgun Challenge it was loaded with old school Federal 125 grain jacketed hollow point 357 magnum rounds. I weighed the options and came out in favor of carrying the heavier magnum rounds. There are cemeteries full of bad guys sent on to their reward that were done in by hard cops carrying 357 magnum ammo While people may not want to remember history, that doesn’t mean it didn’t happen. While the 38 Specials of today are better, if I am limited to six rounds, I want those rounds to be very powerful. The 357 does that pretty decisively.

    Update: Of course, there may be a better option: The Speer 135 grain 357 magnum Short Barrel Gold Dot Jacketed Hollow point round. I have shot a small amount of it. The Speer load seems less violent than the older 125 grain loads. I believe that the reason for this is the reduced velocity of about 1,100 feet per second in a four inch long barrel. It also uses a bonded core bullet which aids in its effectiveness. I may start carrying this load once I exhaust my supply of the 125 grain Federal load.
    Bruce Cartwright
    Owner & chief instructor-SAC Tactical
    E-mail: "info@saconsco.com"
    Website: "https://saconsco.com"

  2. #2
    The Nostomaniac 03RN's Avatar
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    One thing i like about .357 is that there really isnt a bad choice 125gr and up.

    I must admit i am not as accurate with 125gr at 1450 as I am with other loadings. 158s @ 1250 are fine. Im not sure why the lighter faster bullets mess me up so much. Because of prices i never really shot much. I got 3-400 rounds from walmart during their purge that i should just shoot up to help desensitize myself.

    Back when i was working at an indoor range i got pretty comfortable sitting next to a 762 SCAR.

    The .357 golden sabers are my standby that i have a case of but im really liking the 140gr XTPs I loaded up. Over 9grs unique they get about 1200fps from my 2.75" barrel.

    Even the old 158jsp would hit pretty hard even if they dont expand much.

    Once i get a chronograph i want to test out those 135gr sb gold dots from my 66 and from my m92 with a 20" barrel. If im carrying a magnum i want something that has a little more umph. The 135s are rated at 990. Id be happy with 1200.

  3. #3
    In the late 80’s, when I joined Customs, you had a choice of carrying either .38 plus P (various manufacturers), or the legendary Federal 357B, 125 grain JHP. If you wanted to carry the magnum load, you had to qualify with it on the 60-round, 25 yard max course. I would guess that less than 10 percent at my Port carried the magnum load. You can guess what I opted for (LOL). In order not to disturb the concentration of the .38 shooters, the FI would place us magnum shooters far down the firing line in our own little group. That magnum load was a flame thrower ! One of my fellow inspectors scorched his uniform shirt on the hip level, bent elbow position. Also, at the 3 yard line, the paper silhouette target would shred to confetti. Night qualification was like attending July 4th. Another buddy of mine gave up carrying magnum loads when he was nearly dragged away by a driver who used his electric window to pin his arm. Pulled his gun and pointed it at the driver who fortunately stopped the vehicle before getting shot through the window. My buddy said that he feared the magnum load would shred the window glass back into his face, so he did not pull the trigger.

  4. #4
    I'm going to sell organs for a 3" model 65 Ladysmith, leather AIWB with reinforced mouth, boot grips with finger groove ground off, and lay in some midrange magnums by the time this series is finished.

  5. #5
    Member Zeke38's Avatar
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    I have four 357s. A 2" k6, a 2.5" 19, a 3" K6 DA/SA and a 4.2" Match Champion. I fell in love with 357s in 1968. I have mulled the ammo question with these different revolvers and have come to the conclusion that for self defense purposes against bipeds, the 125 Golden Saber 357 load from Remington does it for me. 1080fps out of my Kimber 2", 1122fps out of my 3" Kimber, and 1148fps out of my Match Champion. The load groups well with all 4 firearms and it is managable as it is a reduced load 125 grain screamer. Factory spec state 1250fps but the load velocities that are published above are out of a conservative Chrono; they are comparable to other data on this load.

    This load is also fairly inexpensive.

    Wore a 357 to town today and felt well armed.

  6. #6
    The Nostomaniac 03RN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SCCY Marshal View Post
    I'm going to sell organs for a 3" model 65 Ladysmith, leather AIWB with reinforced mouth, boot grips with finger groove ground off, and lay in some midrange magnums by the time this series is finished.
    Thats sounds classy

    Here's my trashy

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  7. #7
    Member Tennessee Jed's Avatar
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    Great minds think alike. As far as 357 mag ammo goes, I'll admit to being a neanderthal. Full power ammo makes me happy. Once I switched the grip from a Hogue Bantam (which exposes the backstrap) to a Pachmayr Gripper (which covers the backstrap), full power 357 mag ammo became much more comfortable to shoot. I usually have either 145 grain Winchester Silvertips or 158 grain Remington JHPs in this. POA/POI for 125's with these fixed sights is too far off for my comfort.

    The Grippers required a little Dremel work for rounding off the bottom edges to reduce printing, and they look a little sloppy, but I am A-OK with that.

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    Ordinary guy

  8. #8
    My evening is oficially going to get derailed. I've got a bug in my brain that needs addressed.

    Will be playing with some of the 130 grain HST projectiles I ordered from Midway during their blemish sale. Stuff them in 38 Special cases to the cannelure and work up a Skeeter Skelton midrange magnum load for my model 67. He listed 7.0 grains Unique under a 150 grain cast in a Special case. He also mentioned a 150 grain half-jacketed swaged bullet over 7.5 grains Unique. Lyman lists a starting load of 7.0 grains under a 125 grain jacketed hollowpoint in a magnum case.

    So I'll put together 12 each 5.5gr, 6.0gr, 6.5gr, and 7.0gr. Chrono each from low to high and abort if any concerning pressure signs or anything feels plain too much. Then group six of each to see if any pattern better than others in my inept hands.

    Federal's factory 130gr HST load averages 854fps out of a 4" tube on Lucky Gunner's site. I wonder if I can get it up somewhere in the 1,000-1,150fps range. Then dump it into water jugs covered with four layers of Carhartt to check maximum upset and roughly estimate penetration. Be neat to run a .38 Outdoorsman-ish load in my multi-day backcountry camping revolver. Should be fine as something to work up, shoot a cylinder every so often to keep a feel for it, and generally practice with some conventionally loaded .38 hitting close to POI. If it loads that hot without undue pressure signs and if the bullet holds together, it should make a dandy ersatz Heavy Duty. With the large Pachmayr ploughhandle grips on the gun, controllability would be fine.

    Having some pep for tucking under my leg while driving to and from trailheads in case something needs popped through the windshield would be a bonus. The hot stuff in the gun with six more in a cartridge slide and handful of conventional .38 in speed strips in case I need to pot small game would cover a lot of bases.

  9. #9
    Member Tennessee Jed's Avatar
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    That would make me really nervous. I like Skeeter's writing and all, but I'd be cautious about viewing him, or Elmer for that matter, as role models for handloading. Alliant's max on their website for Unique for 135 grain Speer Gold Dots in 38 Special +p is a little lower than your starting point.

    For that role, something more in the 38-44 range, I'd probably just buy a box of Buffalo Bore's 38 Special +P 158 grain LSWCHP's. They are supposed to get around 1,162 fps from a 4 inch barrel.
    Ordinary guy

  10. #10
    The Nostomaniac 03RN's Avatar
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    Not sure those hsts will hold together at that speed.

    I do load 130gr jsp in .38 over 6 gr unique. Milder to shoot than 5.2gr under 158gr hard cast bullet.

    If i was looking for a .38 trail load that would be it (158gr swc over 5.2gr unique.)

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