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Thread: History of pistol shooting techniques

  1. #41
    Murder Machine, Harmless Fuzzball TCinVA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by beltjones View Post
    First, this post supposes that most of body position has to do with controlling recoil
    An MP5, which is hardly a viciously recoiling weapon, will easily push an average adult male backwards if his body position isn't correct. Body position is pretty important in terms of keeping someone in control of the gun, especially if they want to shoot multiple shots in a rapid fashion.

  2. #42
    Murder Machine, Harmless Fuzzball TCinVA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nyeti View Post
    How does this relate to the Modern Technique and Gunsite. What is often missed is that the cornerstone of the Gunsite teaching ideal is the Combat Triad that places EQUAL importance on Mindset (mental), Marksmanship (shooting), and Gun Handling (and tactics). The "shooting" part is only a third of the equation. The shooting part needs to work with the rest in application.
    Referring to the training of police officers and the success that they saw on the street:

    Based on your familiarity with the training, would you say that the instructors you cite from the SoCal scene spent significant amounts of time teaching (or even simulating) bad guy behavior? In other words, were they spending significant time explaining to students behavior that signals the likely need to use lethal force in such a manner that the students recognized it clearly in the situations they faced on the streets and as a result were able to act with confidence to solve the problem?

    If so, would it be possible for you to describe some of the methods they used to accomplish that?

  3. #43
    Back to body position and recoil, when I was shooting a 180 PF .45 ACP through a Glock 21, body position was a lot more important than it is when I'm shooting a 130 PF .38 Super through a 44 ounce DA/SA gun. There are two immediate benefits for me and my shooting applications of standing more upright - I can move the gun a lot faster in transition, and my draw is faster because I'm moving just my arms, so I get better economy of motion. I end up going back to shooting Major through really light guns (which isn't a lot of fun) I'll probably get a little bit lower in my stance again.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by ToddG View Post
    Do you know what happens when one of them falls down (which happened repeatedly in that video)? The fight stops until they get back up. I fail to see the correlation to a real fight.

    Anyway, I'm not interested in yet another round 'n round with you. Believe and do what you want. God bless America.
    Irrelevant. One member asserted that the Muay Thai "stance" was hunched forward, and I provided evidence to two top Muay Thai fighters who do not use such a stance.

    The point is, how one stands to best kick another man in the legs and punch him in the face has little to do with how one stands to shoot a pistol, especially when such a technique is described incorrectly.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by ToddG View Post
    (emphasis mine)

    This is absolutely incorrect and cannot be based on actually watching real people shooting in real dynamic situations. It's not even limited to shooting. Talk to tennis coaches and they'll tell you that people need to be taught -- and drill -- maintaining proper position when moving in a 360 world. Plenty of people lean forward a little bit when moving forward. But many give that up when moving in other directions, especially while moving backwards. At that point, they bias their center in a way that it becomes far easier to trip, slip, and/or fall.

    A drill I use in class illustrates this every time. It involves constant dynamic movement and many people shift their weight backwards when moving backwards... even after being taught to keep a forward crouch and being reminded to do so right before the start of the drill. It takes practice and conscious thought until that body position becomes habituated. The drill in question is something I stole from Scott Warren who for many years was the principal firearms instructor for the FBI's Hostage Rescue Team. His experience with guys at that level led him to believe it needed training and practice, too.

    The problem is dramatically compounded when you leave the competition grid -- which is specifically scrubbed to avoid trip and fall hazards -- and step into a real room, onto a real sidewalk, etc. It's further compounded when foot speed becomes part of the equation. When playing games, it's almost always better to move slowly and shoot quickly within a very small segment of the path. Outside of games, moving very slowly doesn't accomplish much that's useful.
    I absolutely agree with all of this.

    I don't believe that bending the knees and shooting well on the move and all that encompasses it are things that people are born with, and that are governed by the balance center of the inner ear.

    What I do think is correct is that when one bends one's knees and holds a two pound weight at arm's length and tries to hold it steady as one walks around an uneven surface, one will automatically compensate for the awkward position by bending at the waist to such a degree that it allows one to stay balanced.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by TCinVA View Post
    An MP5, which is hardly a viciously recoiling weapon, will easily push an average adult male backwards if his body position isn't correct. Body position is pretty important in terms of keeping someone in control of the gun, especially if they want to shoot multiple shots in a rapid fashion.
    I wasn't aware we were talking about subguns.

  7. #47
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    I've been told that the reason one leans aggressively forward is because 'in a fight' and they always used that term, your body would naturally drop down a little along with your head because it was a body reflex. So since you'd be in that position anyway because that's what happens in a fight, you should learn to shoot from that position. And your head being tucked down is protecting it. I also figured it's the same position most people are in when hiding either behind something or wishing they had something to hide behind. In that way it always made sense to me. Then later when I started shooting compitition I found that it limited my vision (especially wearing a hat) since as was mentioned earlier I was looking out the tops of my eyes but worse it 'locked' me into a position that was harder to get out of rather than just standing and staying loose. Now, if I was in a fight, maybe I would want to stay tight and keep my head protected but of the fights I've been in I always found that everyone stood upright hands down to get the other guy close and not telegraph your strike until you were locked together and grappling. Growing up in L.A. I was always fighting someone but we're talking young adults, not trained fighters.

    I think there is a difference though between contact distance, intermediate and longer distance. Certainly one would want to keep their head down so it doesn't get blown off or hit and knocked over such as when hiding behind something or squaring off with someone. Southnarc would probably be our best resource on that. But if you've got some ground to clear with a gun in your hand, even relatively short distances don't most people with experience just tell you to run and find cover and shot from there instead of running and shooting? Wouldn't guys like Kyle Lamb, Larry Vickers, etc be the ones to consult for that? But that's a different environment. Scott Reitz describes his first engagement (first?) as being on the move in a Harris because he had to to get to covering the front of a house. Look at Rob Leatham or Ben winning matchs and they're upright. I think the point is that situations are soo varied it's hard to say do it this way or do it that way when the situation will dictate what you do which may or may not be the correct way to do anything.

    It's that whole reload discussion. Some say reload up high, some of the top shooters reload low, you know what, just reload the damn thing as best you can. If you need to run, run. If you need to shoot, shoot. If you need to do both, neither is going to be all that great. At that point can you really say there is a best way to do anything? I remember a class with Massad Ayoob where he taught to walk gracho marx to shoot and move; that was a complete waste. Isn't the whole idea of any doctrine to be rigid and tied to something yet Bruce Lee said not be tied to anything and be fluid, like water. Not everything works the same for everyone which is why there are soo many different things to teach and learn and then keep or disgard. Head position and forward lean is completely personal. I think the only thing in the shooting world that we've figured out that works best is how to hold the thing for stability and recoil management, everything else is general principles which vary.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by beltjones View Post
    I wasn't aware we were talking about subguns.
    This is an example of snarkiness and disrespect towards a Staff member that will not be tolerated. Don't argue, just listen and take direction.

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  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by beltjones View Post
    Irrelevant. One member asserted that the Muay Thai "stance" was hunched forward, and I provided evidence to two top Muay Thai fighters who do not use such a stance.

    The point is, how one stands to best kick another man in the legs and punch him in the face has little to do with how one stands to shoot a pistol, especially when such a technique is described incorrectly.
    [edited out any sarcasm]

    I said that I use a pretty aggressive stance like what I use in MT. I did not assert that it was "hunched forward", I also realize by your quotations that while sparring or fighting, your "stance" is going to be much less "stance-like" because you are moving, throwing strikes, blocking, checking, and possibly adding in head movement (depending on your style). My MT instructor was ranked in the top 10 in the world in kickboxing before he switched to focusing almost purely on MMA, so I feel that I have a pretty solid understanding of what an "MT stance" looks like. I never competed in MT like I did in BJJ, but I think I understand the basics somewhat well. I think the difference in terms is massive between an aggressive stance shooting (generally hunched very far forward, head somewhat low, etc) and an "aggressive" Muay Thai "stance" (feet roughly shoulder width apart, weight distributed on balls of feet, feet placement so that you have a solid, steady base when punched/kicked/elbowed, etc). I was not Buakaw unfortunately, so I wasn't quite as natural and comfortable bouncing around during a fight. Although no one would question that whatever his technique is, it works extremely well. No one here (I don't think) is implying that a fighting stance is hunched forward, you can very much be standing upright as long as you can take a punch without falling on your butt.
    Last edited by GOP; 06-04-2012 at 11:30 AM. Reason: I edited the sarcasm
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  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by GOP View Post
    Belt, you are being pretty annoying here to be honest.

    I said that I use a pretty aggressive stance like what I use in MT. I did not assert that it was "hunched forward", I also realize by your quotations that while sparring or fighting, your "stance" is going to be much less "stance-like" because you are moving, throwing strikes, blocking, checking, and possibly adding in head movement (depending on your style). My MT instructor was ranked in the top 10 in the world in kickboxing before he switched to focusing almost purely on MMA, so I feel that I have a pretty solid understanding of what an "MT stance" looks like. I never competed in MT like I did in BJJ, but I think I understand the basics somewhat well. I think the difference in terms is massive between an aggressive stance shooting (generally hunched very far forward, head somewhat low, etc) and an "aggressive" Muay Thai "stance" (feet roughly shoulder width apart, weight distributed on balls of feet, feet placement so that you have a solid, steady base when punched/kicked/elbowed, etc). I was not Buakaw unfortunately, so I wasn't quite as natural and comfortable bouncing around during a fight. Although no one would question that whatever his technique is, it works extremely well. No one here (I don't think) is implying that a fighting stance is hunched forward, you can very much be standing upright as long as you can take a punch without falling on your butt.
    Sorry to be annoying, but this post is pretty interesting.

    You mention that when moving and in a dynamic environment your "stance" isn't very stance-like. I totally agree. In fact, that's the crux of the argument, isn't it?

    The point is that there really is no "competition shooting stance" or posture or whatever because the whole point of competitions - except rare classifier stages and such - is that the stage designers are trying to get you into a dynamic environment. So a still photograph of someone in the midst of a USPSA stage can never tell the whole story of that person's competition shooting technique, because we as the viewers have no idea what the extenuating circumstances are.

    "Aggressive" is more of a state of mind than a posture or stance, and in fact I would go so far as to say that no static posture in the world is "aggressive." I imagine with your training you would agree. And just as you say, you can be standing upright as long as you can take a punch without falling on your butt, you can be upright and still manage to shoot without getting disrupted by recoil. After all, the outcome is the final determinant of the effectiveness of a technique, not the dogma or the appeal to expertise or anything else.

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