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Thread: History of pistol shooting techniques

  1. #31
    I actually just had a 110 lbs chick in a competition shooting class. She had tiny hands and was running a big glock 34. I advised her the same as I advise a 300 lbs man. Stand comfortably squared up to the targets, have your shoulders in front of your hips (do not have an aggressive forward lean, just a forward weight bias). She was able to make center hits on a 7 yard target while shooting as fast as she could manipulate the trigger.

    I have experimented many times with using my body position to try to minimize the effects of recoil. I have really played around with it SHO (where I feel recoil control is a big issue) by leaning way forward and such… I have never actually been able to produce observable and repeatable improvements (as measured by a shot timer) by leaning far forward.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by ToddG View Post
    There are tradeoffs to both.
    Once you start to move, being upright costs you. As an example, watch this video of Bob Vogel starting at around 4:45. In particular, notice the difference between his stance when engaging the first set of targets (static) and the second (on the move).
    I remember that one. That's the one where he flat out admitts to dumping rounds and then teaches everyone when and why to do it then realizes it a minute later. Whoopsy.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Stoeger View Post
    I actually just had a 110 lbs chick in a competition shooting class. She had tiny hands and was running a big glock 34. I advised her the same as I advise a 300 lbs man. Stand comfortably squared up to the targets, have your shoulders in front of your hips (do not have an aggressive forward lean, just a forward weight bias). She was able to make center hits on a 7 yard target while shooting as fast as she could manipulate the trigger.

    I have experimented many times with using my body position to try to minimize the effects of recoil. I have really played around with it SHO (where I feel recoil control is a big issue) by leaning way forward and such… I have never actually been able to produce observable and repeatable improvements (as measured by a shot timer) by leaning far forward.
    Every time I've tried shooting agressively forward, and I've been told to by several trainers, I've found it harder and more fatiguing to shoot. I've also found it harder to maintain consistency in my draws with both the pistol and my head moving around.

  4. #34
    Site Supporter LOKNLOD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by joshs View Post
    I've always felt that the major benefit from standing upright is in sight tracking. As you lean forward, your head also becomes less upright, which causes your eyes to move up to compensate for the forward lean. With a very aggressive lean it is possible to lose the front sight over the top edge of your lenses or the brim of your hat. I also feel that the speed of my vision is somewhat reduced when my eyes are not centered/relaxed.
    I think that the aggressive forward lean really provides some benefit in tracking the sights during a pressout. The body mechanics in my arms and shoulders are much more favorable to getting the gun leveled out earlier and pressing straight out ("scraping the glass") versus bowling the gun up into position.
    --Josh
    “Formerly we suffered from crimes; now we suffer from laws.” - Tacitus.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by beltjones View Post
    If someone crouches because he is moving, it is because he needs to do so in order to stay balanced with the kind of knee bend that is best for absorbing shock while shooting on the move. It isn't something that requires conscious thought.
    (emphasis mine)

    This is absolutely incorrect and cannot be based on actually watching real people shooting in real dynamic situations. It's not even limited to shooting. Talk to tennis coaches and they'll tell you that people need to be taught -- and drill -- maintaining proper position when moving in a 360 world. Plenty of people lean forward a little bit when moving forward. But many give that up when moving in other directions, especially while moving backwards. At that point, they bias their center in a way that it becomes far easier to trip, slip, and/or fall.

    A drill I use in class illustrates this every time. It involves constant dynamic movement and many people shift their weight backwards when moving backwards... even after being taught to keep a forward crouch and being reminded to do so right before the start of the drill. It takes practice and conscious thought until that body position becomes habituated. The drill in question is something I stole from Scott Warren who for many years was the principal firearms instructor for the FBI's Hostage Rescue Team. His experience with guys at that level led him to believe it needed training and practice, too.

    The problem is dramatically compounded when you leave the competition grid -- which is specifically scrubbed to avoid trip and fall hazards -- and step into a real room, onto a real sidewalk, etc. It's further compounded when foot speed becomes part of the equation. When playing games, it's almost always better to move slowly and shoot quickly within a very small segment of the path. Outside of games, moving very slowly doesn't accomplish much that's useful.

  6. #36
    Site Supporter Odin Bravo One's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EmanP View Post
    Every time I've tried shooting agressively forward, and I've been told to by several trainers, I've found it harder and more fatiguing to shoot. I've also found it harder to maintain consistency in my draws with both the pistol and my head moving around.
    Kind of along the same lines as Todd's most recent comments..........

    Leaning forward or aggressive forward lean, or whatever you choose to call it, or how you choose to describe it may or may not affect your shooting. If you strictly play games with guns, then no problem.

    But away from the game, having an aggressive stance, while slightly fatiguing, will pay dividends. Taking a punch to the face is never a fun way to begin your evening, but try it standing straight up. You will quickly find yourself attempting to shoot from the flat of your back, at least from anyone who knows how to punch.

    Certainly there are many factors that will influence whether you finish that fight standing up, from the ground, or not at all...... but stance is one of them.
    You can get much more of what you want with a kind word and a gun, than with a kind word alone.

  7. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Sean M View Post
    Kind of along the same lines as Todd's most recent comments..........

    Leaning forward or aggressive forward lean, or whatever you choose to call it, or how you choose to describe it may or may not affect your shooting. If you strictly play games with guns, then no problem.

    But away from the game, having an aggressive stance, while slightly fatiguing, will pay dividends. Taking a punch to the face is never a fun way to begin your evening, but try it standing straight up. You will quickly find yourself attempting to shoot from the flat of your back, at least from anyone who knows how to punch.

    Certainly there are many factors that will influence whether you finish that fight standing up, from the ground, or not at all...... but stance is one of them.
    Big +1 here.

    Several years of MMA and combatives has pretty much ensured that I stand in basically a Muay Thai stance naturally while shooting. I've tried to stand straight up, but under any kind of stress I revert back to my MT stance. The aggressive stance hasn't seemed to effect my speed and accuracy at, and I have the added bonus of having the same stance when shooting or fighting.
    http://thedownzerojourney.wordpress.com/

  8. #38
    Member jstyer's Avatar
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    I found that though a lower, more forward aggressive stance was fatiguing at first for me... after dedicated practice it quickly became second nature and is now not uncomfortable at all.
    I train to be better than I was yesterday. -F2S

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by GOP View Post
    Big +1 here.

    Several years of MMA and combatives has pretty much ensured that I stand in basically a Muay Thai stance naturally while shooting. I've tried to stand straight up, but under any kind of stress I revert back to my MT stance. The aggressive stance hasn't seemed to effect my speed and accuracy at, and I have the added bonus of having the same stance when shooting or fighting.


    The link is two top Muay Thai fighters going at it. They stand pretty straight up, tucked chin notwithstanding (which is tucked for defensive purposes, not because it lets them punch or kick or see better).

  10. #40
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    Do you know what happens when one of them falls down (which happened repeatedly in that video)? The fight stops until they get back up. I fail to see the correlation to a real fight.

    Anyway, I'm not interested in yet another round 'n round with you. Believe and do what you want. God bless America.

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