History of pistol shooting techniques

[JHC]

This film is fascinating and actually dispels many misconceptions I had about combat pistol marksmanship in WWII. I had always thought that the "bullseye" technique was the only one taught and also that the only targets used were "bulleye" style (this I believe I got from Col. Grossman's first book). From the video it seems that they had a pretty good idea on a "forward" leaning stance and were developing a two handed position as well, albeit with the "cup and saucer" grip. The two things that struck me as absent from this training were:
1) Recoil Management
2) Reloading

I am of the understanding the Weaver was the one who pioneered the "modern" grip in an effort to help control recoil and that Cooper and others advanced it. Is this correct and if not, when did the idea of using "as much meat on the grip as possible" come in vogue? Also, when did the rapid reload techniques that we all use today come about?

This thread is proving to be as informative as suspected. I am somewhat embarrassed by my feeble attempt early in the thread considering all the big guns that have followed.

Don't be. It was solid. All I could come up with was to start the American pistol legacy with Earp and Hickock for their dictums of accuracy above speed.

[DonovanM]

edited by LittleLebowski: If you have questions or concerns about Staff activities, contact Staff directly via PM. Often, as in this case, decisions are made by Staff based on more than just what members may see in a thread.

[JSGlock34]

I am of the understanding the Weaver was the one who pioneered the "modern" grip in an effort to help control recoil and that Cooper and others advanced it. Is this correct and if not, when did the idea of using "as much meat on the grip as possible" come in vogue? Also, when did the rapid reload techniques that we all use today come about?

Shooting to Live by Fairbairn and Sykes was published in 1942. It had this illustration on two handed grip. Looks pretty decent to me. The description of the grip and stance sounds almost like the Chapman stance - as the shooting arm is rigid. This stance is suggested for shooting at 10 yards distance and greater.



No question that this method gained wide acceptance under Weaver and Cooper - a key addition being the use of the sights and aimed fire. Fairbairn, Sykes and Applegate are rightly associated with one-handed 'point shooting' techniques - the full title of the book after all is 'Shooting to Live - With the One Hand Gun'.



An interesting piece of history.

[Tom Givens]

Two quick notes:

I have one of the Shanghai Municipal Police 1911's (#233). It was made by Colt in 1928 and has the original, tiny 1911 sights, not the later 1911A1 sights. This is why point shooting was popular in that time frame--the sights were damn near invisible at speed or in anything other than perfect light.

Jack Weaver shot a 6" barrel K-38 with wadcutters, so he was not concerned with recoil control. The "push-pull isometric tension" of the classic Weaver stance was added by Cooper after research by John Plahn, an early Southwest Pistol League competitor who held a degree in phys-ed.

[TGS]

This film is fascinating and actually dispels many misconceptions I had about combat pistol marksmanship in WWII. I had always thought that the "bullseye" technique was the only one taught and also that the only targets used were "bulleye" style (this I believe I got from Col. Grossman's first book).

Don't forget that there's always the concept of what should be taught, and what actually is taught due to various constraints. When my grandfather enlisted to go fight in the Korean War, the US Army didn't have enough time to give the recruits a full boot camp, so they simply said "From you until you *points* will do the first half of Basic. From you until you *points again* will be doing the 2nd half of basic." Yup.......so you had half the recruits not even receive range training on the M1 Garand. For real, you had young men going off to fight hordes of Chinese and they didn't even know how to shoot an M1. Gramps found himself giving impromptu lessons on how to sight and shoot an M1 Garand on his way to Pusan, and even on the train ride from Pusan going north. The specific techniques to US rifles, such as a BZO, wasn't taught to those that did get rifle training even when it was so fundamental to US rifle marksmanship that our sights were designed specifically for it. So, the concepts of what needs to be taught and what are actually taught can be drastically different.

[JSGlock34]

I have one of the Shanghai Municipal Police 1911's (#233). It was made by Colt in 1928 and has the original, tiny 1911 sights, not the later 1911A1 sights. This is why point shooting was popular in that time frame--the sights were damn near invisible at speed or in anything other than perfect light.

Fairbairn and Sykes discussed the limitations of the sights of the day - especially in low light, which they noted was often when criminals tangled with police. They also discussed mounting shotgun type silver bead sights on pistols to provide a bright reference point for use in low light - an early night sight concept.

[EmanP]

edited by ToddG: If you have questions or concerns about Staff activities, contact Staff directly via PM. Often, as in this case, decisions are made by Staff based on more than just what members may see in a thread.

[BaiHu]

More to the topic of the history of pistol shooting, something from the FBI from many moons ago:

Shooting For Survival

From the WWII era Army:

1911 Training

I believe the 1911 video shows some Applegate influence.

Awesome links that were very historically illuminating to a noob such as myself. I've been leaning towards learning technique at this point and history has not been a focus for me, but this was enjoyable and educational, especially on ricochets-wow!

Thanks!

[LittleLebowski]

I have one of the Shanghai Municipal Police 1911's (#233). It was made by Colt in 1928 and has the original, tiny 1911 sights, not the later 1911A1 sights.

I'd like to see this if possible.

[Suvorov]

Two quick notes:

I have one of the Shanghai Municipal Police 1911's (#233). It was made by Colt in 1928 and has the original, tiny 1911 sights, not the later 1911A1 sights. This is why point shooting was popular in that time frame--the sights were damn near invisible at speed or in anything other than perfect light.

Jack Weaver shot a 6" barrel K-38 with wadcutters, so he was not concerned with recoil control. The "push-pull isometric tension" of the classic Weaver stance was added by Cooper after research by John Plahn, an early Southwest Pistol League competitor who held a degree in phys-ed.

Was it the Shanghai Police that later adopted the Inglis made High Powers with the tangent sights?

Speaking of sights, when did the modern standard of the 3-dot (or similar white dot enhanced) sight start becoming standard?