Feel like I'm struggling...or are my expectations too high?

[nirol]

Hi All,
I was hoping to get some input and opinions on my plight to become a better shooter. I understand that everyone is different, and there are no easy answers, but I sure would appreciate any feedback.

History:
I now have maybe 4-5k rounds downrange in my lifetime, the majority coming in the last 6 months as I've really tried to practice more (more dry-fire too!). I know that I need a *lot* more practice and experience (adding 500-1k rounds per month this summer), but at the same time want to make sure I'm training the right way and maximizing the learning.

The results:
I'm going to leave out my sig, and my 1911 because I have minimal trigger time on them, and am frankly, awful.

The majority of my rounds are with my m&p full size with an apex sear, and recently 500 rounds with my new PPQ. When I'm shooting my very best, while being as deliberate as possible, I will put ~5-6 out of ten rounds on a 3x5 index card at 10 yards. At 25 yards, I'm lucky to hit a silhouette target with half of my shots.

My question:
This doesn't seem very good to me. Am I being too hard on myself or is this indeed, fairly poor, and I should be concerned about poor mechanics?

What I work on: (I feel like I do in golf, thinking about so many things that I can get overwhelmed)

-Not staging the trigger, focusing on a straight, even trigger pull
-Focusing on the front sight/good sight picture
-Grip: Watched a number of people, videos. I think it mimics the 'right way' for the most part.
-Grip pressure...50-50, 60-40 etc...and trying not to milk it while shooting by gripping firm. Too hard, and I lose dexterity in my trigger finger so I try for a happy medium. (I use thumbs forwards, try to grip as much of the pistol as possible, high on the 'beavertail,' canted left hand down a bit to get the heel of my hand high on the grip)
-Various DotW
-Stance...slightly bent knees, feet shoulder width apart, arms not quite locked, but straight...not creating too much tension
-Watch, observe, read as much as I can


Things I've noticed that might be bad:
-Every single dummy round I ever put in the mag, I jerk down on it. I've tried a number of things that I've read/seen to fix this, but I always seem to do it. I stop, do 10 dry fires. Or 'Dump' a mag quickly into the berm and try to keep eyes open while doing it. I've also read posts that lead me to believe some of this is natural, and OK if done after the round has left the barrel...not sure which I'm doing (before or after--I don't always miss low)...but I do know that it is always present. I like the dummy round idea for identifying...but I feel like I've ID'd it to death...none of the drills seem to fix it...if it needs fixed?
-My long, gangly fingers make trigger finger placement a constant mystery. I've read 'always pad' and also that the knuckle is OK. For comfort, I would place the trigger on the pad between my first and second knuckle...but I realize this is way too much...so I typically go with the 1st knuckle...the pad just feel like so much of my finger is away from the gun, and kinda like I'm pushing the gun maybe?
-Close my left eye, use right eye, right handed shooter...both eyes open I just don't seem to see the sight very well


Am I just in a position where I need to shoot, shoot, shoot to get better? Or am I doing a disservices by continually shooting without taking more lessons (I've taken two, 3 hour courses) or working on better mechanics first? I know I should really only compete/push myself...but I can't help but get a bit discouraged when I can finally drag a friend to the range that never wants to shoot, and they get bored after 50 rounds, yet seem at least as accurate, but with more speed, or flat out more accurate.

I'm not really discouraged by being a Novice IDPA shooter either as I don't expect to score well there, yet. But I'd hoped that I would have seen some improvement over the last couple thousand rounds when shooting by myself, no pressure, and while taking ample time. Instead, I seem to be really consistent with my 10 and 25 yard performance (or lack thereof).

Is it unrealistic at this point to expect to be able to hit all ten in the 3x5 card at ten yards with all the time in the world?

Sorry for the novel...

[Odin Bravo One]

You set your expectations, so only you can really decide if they are too high.

Though, what I take from reading your post is that you could probably benefit greatly from a knowledgeable, experienced, professional trainer. I would suggest a 2 or 3 day level 1/basic type program to start with. In addition to the instruction and professional critiques, you will get pages of notes and drills to practice on your own, not to mention meeting like minded folks that could be become some great shooting buddies/informal coaches for after the course concludes and you are practicing on your own. It is very difficult to self-diagnose issues when you are still working on mastery of the fundamentals.

Since you didn't fill in your location information, I have no idea where you are, so I cannot make suggestions or recommend trainers in your area.

Just know that these types of courses can be expensive (relative term of course). Plan on at least $750-$800 for a 3 day course tuition, and usually between 1200-2000k rounds of factory ammunition. Some trainers may allow re-loaded ammo, but many do not as the non-stop issues that come from reloads distract from training. Gas, lodging, days off work, meals, etc can easily bring a 3 day course total cost to upwards of $1500+.

However, in most cases, it is well worth the cost when you consider everything you get. I still take Level I and basic level 2 or 3 day courses and I consider it time and money well spent every time.

[LOKNLOD]

Sean's advice is excellent. If you'll share your general location, folks here can help you hook up with someone close by. Even a few hours with a good coach could help get you on track.

[Sheep Have Wool]

Fellow new shooter, with probably similar experience.

• Take a class with a good instructor.
• Start tracking your performance.
• Dry fire and more dry fire.

[JConn]

Training is of course the best answer and will yield the best results. SeanM is someone to listen to. Me, maybe not so much, but I may have a suggestion. With your trigger pull, you say you are focusing on a straight even trigger pull. Try to make sure you are using constant pressure, instead of trying to make the trigger move at the same speed throughout its travel. The trigger may stop moving, but as long as pressure continues to build I believe that is still proper form. If you try to rush though the trigger pull on some of these pistols that have a "glass rod" type stage to them like a glock or m&p (I have never fired a PPQ), you will end up disrupting your sights. At least that has been my experience. I try to ensure that the amount of pressure my finger exerts on the trigger is only the amount needed to move it, any excess energy just gets transfered to the gun, moving your sights.

[ford.304]

I'll second the "see a real trainer" advice. You've already spent as much on ammo as you would on a good class, and probably gotten less skill advancement for it.

All I have to say other than that, is if you're having problems with your accuracy in slow fire, stop worrying about the rest of your technique. For "can I hit a 3x5 card at 10 yards" your grip, stance, etc do not matter so much -- distractions *do*. Hard focus on the front sight, make sure your posts are perfectly lined up, and then don't move them during a smooth trigger pull. That's it.

No time limits, put your gun down and rest, and just *focus* on making that one shot, like there's no other shot in the world. Once you can do that, you can worry about the rest.

[JeffJ]

I will also recommend a good trainer

It sounds like you have "pretty good" accuracy at 10 yards and then completly fall apart at 25 - I've had the same problem and *for me* I was using more of an intermideate focus and shooting well at shorter distances - it didn't work at further distances, I really had to discover what a hard front sight focus was and use that at further distances.

It helped me to do walk back drills one yard at a time and really be aware of what was happening as I moved further back

Of course, none of that helps if you don't have good fundamentals and that is where a good instructor can save you time, money, and headaches.

[SamuelBLong]

I also concur with Sean and the others about taking a class from a reputable instructor or coach. Your fundamentals will improve drastically when someone can watch everything going on and give you feedback.

When I first was starting out, I too over thought things as I was learning how to shoot tiny groups at distance. To overcome this I came up with a rigid checklist / pre shot routine that I would follow, starting with my feet and ending with my grip and sight alignment. Your conscious effort can really only focus on one thing at a time, so having a checklist is a good way to let you work down to the one thing that will help you the most - not disturbing the sights as you break the shot.

Try this routine next time:

Feel your hands solidly gripping the gun.
Align the sights, and drive them to the target.
Concentrate on not disturbing your alignment as you smoothly break the shot.

Another thing you're probably concerned about, and correct me if I'm wrong, is trying to compensate for the amout of wobble / sway when shooting for accuracy at distance. Theres nothing you can do about it; We all want to hit that one particular spot on the target, waiting for everything to be perfect...for the sights to stop moving on the target. I struggled with it for a while, but after taking with Brian Enos I got a completely different way of thinking about it. Brian advocated to me to think of the gun as 100% stable, and that the target was floating around downrange. Since I couldn't control the movement, all I could do was concentrate on not disturbing the sights and fire the best shot I could. My 25 yd group size dropped to 1/8th the size.

The wall drill is an excellent dry fire drill to practice all of this, as you don't get distracted by a target. It's something that I practice every day 2H, SHO and WHO.

Tape over the non dominant eye's lens on your shooting classes with scotch tape. Your non dominant eye will be unable to focus while still allowing light transmission. The tension in your face will dissipate, and given enough time, your brain will learn to ignore information from that eye when you don't have glasses on.

As for your dummy round practice problem, it could be a flinch, it could be recoil management being executed. A good trainer should easily be able to tell the difference, but it's hard to say without observing you.

[nirol]

Thanks for all of the advice thus far guys!

I will continue to keep an eye open for good training. I've been a bit leery since I don't really know anybody that has taken courses that they'd recommend. My previous two sessions would probably not constitute the quality of training that you guys are recommending...so I'll keep looking. I do see a fair amount of training offered, but vetting out the quality has been the more difficult part vs scheduling/funding etc.

[Sheep Have Wool]

I will continue to keep an eye open for good training. I've been a bit leery since I don't really know anybody that has taken courses that they'd recommend. My previous two sessions would probably not constitute the quality of training that you guys are recommending...so I'll keep looking. I do see a fair amount of training offered, but vetting out the quality has been the more difficult part vs scheduling/funding etc.

You're certainly right that not all of the training is worth the money. I'm not sure if you have a Vickers Shooting Method regional instructor in the area - it looks like you don't - but you might find someone at the range who seems to be performing at a high level, and ask them about local trainers they recommend. Someone here might be able to suggest a quality trainer as well, which worked for me.

One final suggestion might be to attend a local IDPA/USPSA match (even if just as a spectator), and ask the top shooters there whom they recommend in the area.