HK TDAs - What do they do better better than other TDAs?

[Hstanton1]

The short version of this is that I'm looking for a TDA carry gun.

The long version is that after a few years of deliberation and a recent range trip where I compared a sig p229 to my G45, I really want some variety of TDA. I carry appendix and really like the safety benefits that have all been discussed, as well as the "thinking trigger" aspect that has been brought up here as well as other places. The options I'm strongly considering at the moment are either a P30L (maybe LEM, maybe V3) or a Beretta PX4 compact carry.

I'm sure it will come up eventually, but this range session with the P229 resulting in me wanting a TDA was more than just "the feelies." I shot the 10 10 10 drill back to back with both pistols, and found that the TDA gun generally gave me a slightly higher score in the same amount of time with a little less effort, largely because of the SA trigger. There are definitely some feelies involved with the DA trigger, it just feels nice and I want to learn to reap the benefits that Ernest Langdon espouses in his "fear not the double action shot" series.

I realize that the two guns in question are pretty different in size, but they would both be CCW/training guns to me. the grip length of the HK isn't a huge issue, based on my body type and holster I can conceal my G45 pretty well under a T shirt.

The meat of my question is this: Is it worth getting an HK hammer fired gun in a variant other than LEM? From what I've read, it seems like the beretta triggers are essentially easier to be made nicer, and have a higher ceiling for weight reduction, if that makes sense.

So, for those among you with experience on both pistols, what do you think? Both seem to be decent PMO hosts, both have followings, and both seem like good choices for appendix carry, but what does HKs DA/SA trigger do that beretta doesn't? Is it factors other than the trigger that draw you to HK over Beretta? Is the P30L larger than the sum of its parts? Am I overthinking this and should just shut up and shoot my Glock more? (probably yes)

Please tell me.

[Maca]

I pulled an LEM HK45C out of the safe this Sunday after not touching it for nearly 2 years, and to my surprise, shot it as well or better than a Glock 45 that I’ve been putting considerable effort in to.

So I’d say that that the LEM trigger is pretty great if you take time to learn it.

[jwperry]

Here are a few of my thoughts in no particular order, please take note that it has been probably 8+ years since I ran a P30 and 1.5+ since I had a PX4CC:

Why not the P229 you already have? Sig arguably is a better PMO host over the PX4CC or P30.

I hated the LEM and wish I'd have stuck with the P30 long enough to experience what GGI has put out in the way of triggers for them.

Trigger vs Trigger, the PX4CC beats the P30 out of the box everyday and twice on the weekend.

I like the decocker position on the P30 over Sig or Beretta.

My personal platform is the Sig, it just works for me best.

[TicTacticalTimmy]

To mount a PMO on a PX4, you would need to get the $350 MOS plate option from Langdon. As far as I know that is your only option at this time, and I'm not sure if you can get BUIS.

For the P30, check out the P2000 thread in the Red Dot section. You will see it is pretty involved machine work, I dont know the exact price but I think $400-500 with BUIS. I believe L&M precision is the only good option, but they are really great in general.

If PMO usage is important to you, I would definitely consider a CZ P07. It will be $250-350 to mill for an optic and get BUIS, $150 or so if you dont care about BUIS.

I dont know about Sigs but given that the P226RX exists, I would think they would be about the same cost as a P07, maybe cheaper.

---- back to the original question, PX4 or P30:

PX4 pros:
-"soft" recoil due to rotating barrel system, although comparing the compact to a P30L I would imagine that edge goes away due to the size difference.
-much nicer trigger out of the box and after upgrades. Langdon's TJIAB is half the cost if sending a P30 off to one of the few smiths that work on them.
-can buy the LTT version and have a great gun ready to go out of the box, which will depreciate way less than an HK you had custom work done to
-LTT PX4 is cheaper than a P30 with a trigger job plus night sights


P30L pros:
-grip... IMO the best feeling plastic pistol there is. Does this translate into better performance? I dont know
-so sexy
-no levers poking out of slide (personal bias)
-superb reputation for durability, reliability, and match grade accuracy. The Beretta 92 also has this reputation, the PX4 just has less of a track record to go off of.
-more length-efficient.

Both pistols:
-dont like steel case ammo
-come from great companies (although one company thinks you suck and they hate you)
-limited, although sufficient, aftermarket in the way of holsters, night sights, etc.

[Hstanton1]

Here are a few of my thoughts in no particular order, please take note that it has been probably 8+ years since I ran a P30 and 1.5+ since I had a PX4CC:

Why not the P229 you already have? Sig arguably is a better PMO host over the PX4CC or P30.

I hated the LEM and wish I'd have stuck with the P30 long enough to experience what GGI has put out in the way of triggers for them.

Trigger vs Trigger, the PX4CC beats the P30 out of the box everyday and twice on the weekend.

I like the decocker position on the P30 over Sig or Beretta.

My personal platform is the Sig, it just works for me best.

Should have worded that better, the P229 was a range rental. The trigger was nice, and it was well broken in, but something about the grip angle and recoil impulse (worn out range rental recoil spring maybe?) exacerbated an old wrist injury of mine in a way other pistols haven't. I probably need to shoot a better taken care of example to give the platform a fair shake. LEM interests me based on what Darryl Bolke has written about it on here, but having had no experience with it I could very well hate it too.

[psalms144.1]

I recently traded into a P2000 DA/SA in 9mm, and took it out to the range for a quick spin on Sunday. It's not as easy to shoot a perfect qualification score with as my Stacatto C, but, first run through shot a 296/300 - with only two shots dropped low at the 25 yard line. The DA trigger in dry fire sucks ass compared to any Beretta trigger I've ever tried, but, shooting on the timer on the range, I don't notice any "suck" at all. The trigger is longish, and heavy-ish, and if you pull it REALLY SLOW you can feel "micro hitches" in the action. But, in the real world, I can't imagine when that would make a difference. Front sight on target, press the trigger consistently and without stop, and the rounds will go where you want them.

I say all that with a healthy helping of crow, because I've been an outspoken HK-triggger-basher for a long time, because they "feel" bad in slow dry fire. The proof in the range pudding says they work just fine. The SA reset is longer than I'd like, and there's considerable take up after reset, which I could do without, but again, neither of those trigger snob issues really made a difference in my shooting.

On the issue of the P30 as opposed to the P2000, I really don't think the larger pistol is worth the effort. I had both in LEM and ran them exclusively and hard circa 2012-2014, and consistently shot better with the P2000 than the P30, despite how "good" the P30 grip "feels."

Having said all that, if you're looking for an RDS host TDA pistol, I agree that the CZ platform is probably the best bet, mainly because it is the most frequently modded that way, so the folks who are doing it are doing it right, and it's a little less spendy than a true "custom mill." As others have noted, there are a couple "classic" Sig variants that come RDS ready, but I don't/won't give Ron Cohen another penny of my hard-earned money - based on principles, and knowledge of what passes for craftsmanship and QC at Exeter these days.

Let us know what you do, and best of luck in your search!

[BehindBlueI's]

I prefer Sig and Beretta's trigger in a TDA over H&K, personally.

I also own P229s and P226s and the size difference isn't enough for me to carry the P229 much. It's actually slightly thicker and is just a chunky little bastard of a pistol. I've wavered on selling my P229 9mm several times but just never seem to let go of it.

[Hstanton1]

To mount a PMO on a PX4, you would need to get the $350 MOS plate option from Langdon. As far as I know that is your only option at this time, and I'm not sure if you can get BUIS.

For the P30, check out the P2000 thread in the Red Dot section. You will see it is pretty involved machine work, I dont know the exact price but I think $400-500 with BUIS. I believe L&M precision is the only good option, but they are really great in general.

If PMO usage is important to you, I would definitely consider a CZ P07. It will be $250-350 to mill for an optic and get BUIS, $150 or so if you dont care about BUIS.

I dont know about Sigs but given that the P226RX exists, I would think they would be about the same cost as a P07, maybe cheaper.

---- back to the original question, PX4 or P30:

PX4 pros:
-"soft" recoil due to rotating barrel system, although comparing the compact to a P30L I would imagine that edge goes away due to the size difference.
-much nicer trigger out of the box and after upgrades. Langdon's TJIAB is half the cost if sending a P30 off to one of the few smiths that work on them.
-can buy the LTT version and have a great gun ready to go out of the box, which will depreciate way less than an HK you had custom work done to
-LTT PX4 is cheaper than a P30 with a trigger job plus night sights


P30L pros:
-grip... IMO the best feeling plastic pistol there is. Does this translate into better performance? I dont know
-so sexy
-no levers poking out of slide (personal bias)
-superb reputation for durability, reliability, and match grade accuracy. The Beretta 92 also has this reputation, the PX4 just has less of a track record to go off of.
-more length-efficient.

Both pistols:
-dont like steel case ammo
-come from great companies (although one company thinks you suck and they hate you)
-limited, although sufficient, aftermarket in the way of holsters, night sights, etc.

I should definitely consider the P07 as well. Last time I shot one, I didn't come away with a very favorable impression of the trigger or the short slide, but I was a much newer shooter then anyway.

I kinda think you're talking me into a PX4CC. PMO cost aside, I have heard nothing but good things about it as a shooter, and you make good points about the cost effectiveness of getting a better trigger out of it.

the P30L is pretty sexy though.

[Hstanton1]

I recently traded into a P2000 DA/SA in 9mm, and took it out to the range for a quick spin on Sunday. It's not as easy to shoot a perfect qualification score with as my Stacatto C, but, first run through shot a 296/300 - with only two shots dropped low at the 25 yard line. The DA trigger in dry fire sucks ass compared to any Beretta trigger I've ever tried, but, shooting on the timer on the range, I don't notice any "suck" at all. The trigger is longish, and heavy-ish, and if you pull it REALLY SLOW you can feel "micro hitches" in the action. But, in the real world, I can't imagine when that would make a difference. Front sight on target, press the trigger consistently and without stop, and the rounds will go where you want them.

I say all that with a healthy helping of crow, because I've been an outspoken HK-triggger-basher for a long time, because they "feel" bad in slow dry fire. The proof in the range pudding says they work just fine. The SA reset is longer than I'd like, and there's considerable take up after reset, which I could do without, but again, neither of those trigger snob issues really made a difference in my shooting.

On the issue of the P30 as opposed to the P2000, I really don't think the larger pistol is worth the effort. I had both in LEM and ran them exclusively and hard circa 2012-2014, and consistently shot better with the P2000 than the P30, despite how "good" the P30 grip "feels."

Having said all that, if you're looking for an RDS host TDA pistol, I agree that the CZ platform is probably the best bet, mainly because it is the most frequently modded that way, so the folks who are doing it are doing it right, and it's a little less spendy than a true "custom mill." As others have noted, there are a couple "classic" Sig variants that come RDS ready, but I don't/won't give Ron Cohen another penny of my hard-earned money - based on principles, and knowledge of what passes for craftsmanship and QC at Exeter these days.

Let us know what you do, and best of luck in your search!

I think what you're saying about HK triggers feeling worse than they preform is a big part of why I'm considering the platform. Though, now that I think of it, my only experience with HK guns resulted in me dropping the mag during recoil because of wrapping the tip of my support hand pointer finger too deep into the grip and hitting the paddle mag release. Goofy stuff, I know.

The P2000 is probably the most apt comparison to the PX4, I totally forgot about it.

Looking at RDS options, CZ definitely has the most robust options I can find. It looks like Langdon's PX4 milling uses glock MOS plates, so I wonder if CHPWS plates would work on there. that would make it a fairly compelling option for me at least. Also, it looks like CHPWS does P30 milling too, and the pricing doesn't seem that high. They ask that you call them to talk about P30L milling though, so that may change the price significantly.

[Hstanton1]

I prefer Sig and Beretta's trigger in a TDA over H&K, personally.

I also own P229s and P226s and the size difference isn't enough for me to carry the P229 much. It's actually slightly thicker and is just a chunky little bastard of a pistol. I've wavered on selling my P229 9mm several times but just never seem to let go of it.

Would you say the P226 carries like a G17 at all? In terms of grip length/printing that is.