Nose over toes vs. more neutral stance and pre-ignition push.

[RevolverRob]

I'm really appreciative of all the information people have willing to bring to bear. I've had more opportunities to read than type today but wanted to chime back in. If I'm following the overall thread drift I've made things a bit to broad and should post targets to give a better picture of where I'm coming from as a new shooter?

As a next step then I'm thinking of maybe I should plan my next live fire session as:


NRA B8- (This is the one I can print out online?)
10 shots 10 seconds, at 10 yard B8
Gabe White Skill Test- 4 drills at 7 yards 17 rounds aggregate
Revolver Rob adjusted baseline test
(sorry to hang that one on you. Hope that's ok. Nothing ill intended by it. Makes it easier for me to remember)
5 shots @ 10 yards, 0.4 or better splits from low ready

32 rounds total for these if I'm using my fingers and toes right. If I run them all twice that will make sure 64 rounds total. I'll concentrate on Ball and Dummy for the remaining ammo budget. Dry fire only for the movement drill that practice (Still hoping proper range environment dry fire might to help connect all the indoor dry fire back in in some small way.

i'll plan to take target and timer pics and report back (assuming there are no forum specific photo upload hurdles to trip me up). I'll plan on running all those drills 20 times or so a day in dry fire in an effort to game the system as much as possible before then.



Does this seem like a good next step for the purposes of this thread?

You can always bring the targets in closer too, if you're having trouble getting the hits in the zones/times you want to achieve.

10-10-10 would be a great place to start. That drill is also known as the "The Test" from Larry Vickers.

Vickers is pretty clear that if it's difficult to hit the standard at 10 yards. You should move the target closer, 5 or 7 yards.

And you can totally do moving and shooting as well - just keep it simple. High hit standards - don't care about the timer when you add the extra steps in.

[NoTacTravis]

You can always bring the targets in closer too, if you're having trouble getting the hits in the zones/times you want to achieve.

10-10-10 would be a great place to start. That drill is also known as the "The Test" from Larry Vickers.

Vickers is pretty clear that if it's difficult to hit the standard at 10 yards. You should move the target closer, 5 or 7 yards.

.

I'll pull "The Test" in to 5 yards and set the par timer for 10 seconds for that one then. This will give a baseline drill at 5/7/10 yards between each of the 3 drills. Plus blunt the ego damage that B8 is likely to dish out on me.

[RJ]

I'll pull "The Test" in to 5 yards and set the par timer for 10 seconds for that one then. This will give a baseline drill at 5/7/10 yards between each of the 3 drills. Plus blunt the ego damage that B8 is likely to dish out on me.

Travis - We have a thread with many *.pdf files of printable targets, here:

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....ntable-Targets

There are also copies of NRA B-8’s there also.

Good luck!

[RJ]

I'll pull "The Test" in to 5 yards and set the par timer for 10 seconds for that one then. This will give a baseline drill at 5/7/10 yards between each of the 3 drills. Plus blunt the ego damage that B8 is likely to dish out on me.

Respectfully, I would not do that just yet. The Test is a well known standard and a very good assessment of your consistency in recoil control and sight alignment. Doing it at 30’/10 yards inside 10s is trickier than it looks. It would be a good baseline for comparison. Also: Try and run it cold, as your first drill. This can show what you are capable of ‘on demand’. Kinda like a match. Or real life, in fact,

FWIW, I’m around 90 or so with my Glock 19 on a good day. I did a 90-3X with my wife’s P365 last month. I’m not a particularly good shot.

[RevolverRob]

Agree with RJ on shooting the standards at the originally designed distances and par times. It gives you a very solid set of baselines to follow up on.

You can shorten the distances if you're struggling to meet an acceptable level. Alternatively, keep the distance and increase the par time - either way the goal is to push yourself at a decent pace with an accuracy challenge. You're trying to put each of the pieces (sights, trigger press, follow through) together.

Once you're hitting those time and distance standards on a consistent basis - Shrink the par time, increase the distance, add movement, add a draw stroke - etc.

I do want to apologize if it seems I was discouraging earlier and telling you something like, "Go back to basics, dummy!" - Not what I intended. Often, when we're enthusiastic we're enjoying ourselves and jumping around a bit. Taking that enthusiasm using it to do quality practice is what allows you develop really substantial skills at a fast pace.

I can't find the exact quote I'm looking for, but I read an interview with a pro-golfer once, where the interviewer asked the golfer, "What separates a professional from an amateur golfer? The number of balls hit?" And the response was something like, "Not the number hit, the quality of the hits. Focusing in practice and training on improvement vs. just hitting balls. An amateur will go out to the driving range and hit 100 balls and think, "Yea, I'm doing great." - A pro will go out and will hit 100 balls on the driving range, but each hit was planned, evaluated to a standard, had a specific goal, etc."

The idea for why we practice is to get better. If we aren't evaluating what we're doing right and wrong in an objective way it will take substantially more time to get better.

[NoTacTravis]

Travis - We have a thread with many *.pdf files of printable targets, here:

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....ntable-Targets

There are also copies of NRA B-8’s there also.

Good luck!

Thank you! I printed out a few copies of the B8 and put them my shooting bag for next week. Then printed a 1/3 scaled B8, set up all the drills on 1/3 scale in the dry fire room, and taped off the floor with measured firing lines at scaled distance. I figure I should be able to get a couple hundred dry fire trigger presses a day on the scaled B8 over the next few days.

I started running the Gabe White Standards drills in 1/3 scaled dry fire over the past two days for 20 minutes each day using the par timer with dark pin and light pin times for the par. I understand that the lack of recoil makes this several orders of magnitude easier to accomplish in dryfire but will hopefully give me an idea of the sense of urgency to shoot at speed for these drills. I'm assuming that the self imposed pressure of pre-promising to post targets will make me want to slow way down to make a good showing on live fire day. I'm kind of assuming (hoping?) that practicing at light pin times in dryfire will yield slightly slower than dark pin times (before being adjusted for penalties) in live fire but with obvious marksmanship errors on my part and insufficient Alpha hits.

[RJ]

Thank you! I printed out a few copies of the B8 and put them my shooting bag for next week. Then printed a 1/3 scaled B8, set up all the drills on 1/3 scale in the dry fire room, and taped off the floor with measured firing lines at scaled distance. I figure I should be able to get a couple hundred dry fire trigger presses a day on the scaled B8 over the next few days.

I started running the Gabe White Standards drills in 1/3 scaled dry fire over the past two days for 20 minutes each day using the par timer with dark pin and light pin times for the par. I understand that the lack of recoil makes this several orders of magnitude easier to accomplish in dryfire but will hopefully give me an idea of the sense of urgency to shoot at speed for these drills. I'm assuming that the self imposed pressure of pre-promising to post targets will make me want to slow way down to make a good showing on live fire day. I'm kind of assuming (hoping?) that practicing at light pin times in dryfire will yield slightly slower than dark pin times (before being adjusted for penalties) in live fire but with obvious marksmanship errors on my part and insufficient Alpha hits.

That seems like a pretty solid plan to me. Have you considered starting a Training Journal? Having mine really focuses me into improving.

I missed a Dark Pin in Gabe's class by a few ticks. I have learned a few things since taking the class though. If you get a chance to take it, I highly recommended it. Gabe has thought long and hard about his curriculum. Gabe's class as well as Mr. Tom Given's 2 day Combative Pistol Training are two of the best educational experiences I've ever had.

Good luck with the shooting!

[NoTacTravis]

I shot the drills under discussion today. I'll list the raw data in this post and look to upload target pics in follow-up posts.

Since my last post I've been focusing almost exclusively on using my dryfire as training in an effort to game these drills today. My dryfire during this time period has largely alternated between ~2 hours days (aggregate over several sessions in a day), and 20 minute single session days with more 2 hour days than 20 minutes days. I felt surprisingly stressed at the firing line by the notion of taking pics and posting them.

I shot the drills cold in the order listed.

NRA B8 Target- 10 shots, 10 yards, 10 second par, start from low ready.
I missed the par on both runs.
Run 1- 10.45 seconds, slow to get on target for the first shot from low ready (1.42). First 5 splits were in the high 0.8's. Then without realizing slowed to 1.07 for most splits with my last shot taking me a whopping 1.45. Target score: 98 (4x, 4 10's, 2 9's)

Run 2- I resolved to bring it in under par this time... and failed again by being even slower. 11.14 to complete. Even longer to get that first shot on target. Lots of splits in the 1.1 range.
Target score: 97 (3x, 5 10's, 1 9, 1 8)



Revolver Rob Test- 5 shots, 10 yards, goal of 0.4 splits and all alphas on an IDPA silhouette
Run 1- 4A, 1D (1.19, .38, .37, .33, .36)
Run 2- 2A, 3C (1.29, .29, .30, .28, .29)


Gabe White Standards
Bill Drill
Run 1- 2.97 (3A, 3C)
Run 2- 3.09 (4A, 2C)

Failure to Stop
Run 1- 2.86 (3A)
Run 2- 2.52 (2A, 1C)

Immediate Incapacitation
Run 1- 1.92 (1A, 1C)
Run 2- 2.14 (1A, 1D? below line of head box)

Split Bill Drill
Run 1- 4.40 (4A, 2C)
Run 2- 4.49 (3A, 3C)

[RJ]

Good shooting!

Were the Gabe White scores shot from a concealment or OWB holster? Gabe subtracts 0.25 for concealment.

[NoTacTravis]

Here are the B8's