Nose over toes vs. more neutral stance and pre-ignition push.

[Eyesquared]

To be honest...it really isn't champion GM shooting. But we can amend the standard - How about 5 Alphas at 10 yards with 0.4 splits from low ready? That's marginally easier than the Bill Drill Standard criterion in Gabe White's Dark Pin Challenge (which is 6 alphas at 7 yards with 0.4 splits and a 1.5 second draw)

Are you kidding me? 5 rounds, all holes touching, at 10 yards, with 0.35 splits? I want to see this. You're talking about basically shooting all X ring hits on a B8 with a pace twice as fast as most people shoot on The Test. Seriously I am 100% tired of people on this forum acting like they are experts when they are not, it results in all this blind-leading-the-blind, going around in circles BS where you get people thinking they have to shoot like a champion before doing any draws or reloads.

If you seriously think this is a plausible standard, video it and show us. What do I know, I guess I've been wasting all the time I spend dry firing and live firing and shooting matches, I should have stuck to the basics of trigger control and fundamentals and I would be winning every match I go to.

[GJM]

Something I learned from Rob Leatham is that shooting is a physical activity that can not be learned by discussing it on the internet.

[RevolverRob]

Are you kidding me? 5 rounds, all holes touching, at 10 yards, with 0.35 splits? I want to see this. You're talking about basically shooting all X ring hits on a B8 with a pace twice as fast as most people shoot on The Test. Seriously I am 100% tired of people on this forum acting like they are experts when they are not, it results in all this blind-leading-the-blind, going around in circles BS where you get people thinking they have to shoot like a champion before doing any draws or reloads.

If you seriously think this is a plausible standard, video it and show us. What do I know, I guess I've been wasting all the time I spend dry firing and live firing and shooting matches, I should have stuck to the basics of trigger control and fundamentals and I would be winning every match I go to.

Okay. Tell us what you think the standards should be.

[Eyesquared]

Okay. Tell us what you think the standards should be.

My good faith answer: I think the standard of "being able to hit everything you need to hit, slow fire" is a good starting point to branch out from. After significantly increasing the amount of training I do, it has become apparent to me that it is possible to keep working on accuracy and speed at the same time. Meaning that if I train in dry fire 20-40 minutes per day and shoot live fire once per week, that leaves plenty of time to work both and see some improvements. Therefore I don't subscribe to the perspective that one has to take everything "in order" and work your way up to "advanced skills".

Frankly I find it very irritating that you continue to dissemble after claiming a level of expertise that is extremely implausible. Either stand by what you wrote or admit a mistake, don't try to deflect, it's beneath you. By comparison to widely known shooting drills, your "standard" stands out as the toughest I have seen by a huge margin. But hey, if this is your minimum requirement to start working on draws and movement, it must come easily to you. Shouldn't be much of an imposition to video it.

[gomerpyle]

Something I learned from Rob Leatham is that shooting is a physical activity that can not be learned by discussing it on the internet.

But I have to wonder how much TGO learned or took inspiration from his late night conversations with Enos

[GJM]

But I have to wonder how much TGO learned or took inspiration from his late night conversations with Enos

Probably a lot, but then they went and tested it at the range the next morning.

[RevolverRob]

My good faith answer: I think the standard of "being able to hit everything you need to hit, slow fire" is a good starting point to branch out from. After significantly increasing the amount of training I do, it has become apparent to me that it is possible to keep working on accuracy and speed at the same time. Meaning that if I train in dry fire 20-40 minutes per day and shoot live fire once per week, that leaves plenty of time to work both and see some improvements. Therefore I don't subscribe to the perspective that one has to take everything "in order" and work your way up to "advanced skills".

I concur that you can work on both accuracy and speed hand in hand - because when you become more comfortable with accuracy standards, speed comes more naturally. It's not a linear path of progression for any person, but establishing that the basic fundamentals must be present before working on other things isn't a fallacy either.

We don't put people who have never completed a basic defensive shooter course into the Roger's Shooting School. Each block of the the field builds upon the previous block. Think of it like trying to do algebra without ever learning how to add and subtract, it won't work.

When I see someone who admits to being a relatively new shooter - who is struggling with both pre-ignition push and potential flinching, alongside of struggling mentally to remember to do 'all' the things (i.e., move, engage the targets in a desired order, reload, etc). I see someone that is trying to run before they've walked. So, walking it back and focusing on basics - then adding things in one step at a time - makes it more tractable to identify where the problems lie and find solutions.

Our OP has brought in a lot of different aspects to his shooting that need to be dissected. Stance, grip, pre-ignition push, potential flinch. There is a lot going on here. Frankly, I have a hard time following all the things the OP is doing, because I'm not understanding what the goals and/or standards are.

And while I understand where you are coming from with "hitting what you need to hit slowfire" - as a basic level. It's not a useful metric, because need to hit and want to hit are not clearly defined. There are many established standards which one can use - the 10 shots, 10 seconds, at 10 yards on a B8 makes a nice round number standard to evaluate if you're hitting what you need to hit in slowfire.

Frankly I find it very irritating that you continue to dissemble after claiming a level of expertise that is extremely implausible. Either stand by what you wrote or admit a mistake, don't try to deflect, it's beneath you. By comparison to widely known shooting drills, your "standard" stands out as the toughest I have seen by a huge margin. But hey, if this is your minimum requirement to start working on draws and movement, it must come easily to you. Shouldn't be much of an imposition to video it.

You are correct, I made a mistake in writing that standard. I'm not sure I could achieve 5-shots touching in that time range at 10 yards right now. Five alphas in that time standard is more manageable, but still a high standard.

[Eyesquared]

I concur that you can work on both accuracy and speed hand in hand - because when you become more comfortable with accuracy standards, speed comes more naturally. It's not a linear path of progression for any person, but establishing that the basic fundamentals must be present before working on other things isn't a fallacy either.

We don't put people who have never completed a basic defensive shooter course into the Roger's Shooting School. Each block of the the field builds upon the previous block. Think of it like trying to do algebra without ever learning how to add and subtract, it won't work.

When I see someone who admits to being a relatively new shooter - who is struggling with both pre-ignition push and potential flinching, alongside of struggling mentally to remember to do 'all' the things (i.e., move, engage the targets in a desired order, reload, etc). I see someone that is trying to run before they've walked. So, walking it back and focusing on basics - then adding things in one step at a time - makes it more tractable to identify where the problems lie and find solutions.

Our OP has brought in a lot of different aspects to his shooting that need to be dissected. Stance, grip, pre-ignition push, potential flinch. There is a lot going on here. Frankly, I have a hard time following all the things the OP is doing, because I'm not understanding what the goals and/or standards are.

And while I understand where you are coming from with "hitting what you need to hit slowfire" - as a basic level. It's not a useful metric, because need to hit and want to hit are not clearly defined. There are many established standards which one can use - the 10 shots, 10 seconds, at 10 yards on a B8 makes a nice round number standard to evaluate if you're hitting what you need to hit in slowfire.
The reason I like the idea of "hitting what you need to hit slowfire" is because this is adaptable to the individual shooter's goals (eg: win a match? you need to be able to hit the mini popper at 30 yards. Self-defense? Insert whatever the hardest shot you anticipate will be. This is not a science, it's more of an art. Keep in mind that if you are training a lot there is always time to go back and fix minor issues assuming you are paying attention to trends in your shooting.)



You are correct, I made a mistake in writing that standard. I'm not sure I could achieve 5-shots touching in that time range at 10 yards right now. Five alphas in that time standard is more manageable, but still a high standard.
Thanks for the correction. Respectfully, I don't care how well other people claim to shoot online but I hate seeing people seeking advice get the wrong idea about what they need to be capable of.

See my response in bold.

[RevolverRob]

It has come to my attention that I provided the wrong title for the thread I referenced before. The correct thread is:

"The Annoying Rightness of Bolke and Dobbs"

The reason I referenced this thread - It discusses some of the nuance of shooting accurately at speed - in a defensive context. And some of the reasons why we want to push ourselves to very high standards, but also take care to assess what's going on when we're shooting at speed.

[NoTacTravis]

I'm really appreciative of all the information people have willing to bring to bear. I've had more opportunities to read than type today but wanted to chime back in. If I'm following the overall thread drift I've made things a bit to broad and should post targets to give a better picture of where I'm coming from as a new shooter?

As a next step then I'm thinking of maybe I should plan my next live fire session as:


NRA B8- (This is the one I can print out online?)
10 shots 10 seconds, at 10 yard B8
Gabe White Skill Test- 4 drills at 7 yards 17 rounds aggregate
Revolver Rob adjusted baseline test
(sorry to hang that one on you. Hope that's ok. Nothing ill intended by it. Makes it easier for me to remember)
5 shots @ 10 yards, 0.4 or better splits from low ready

32 rounds total for these if I'm using my fingers and toes right. If I run them all twice that will make sure 64 rounds total. I'll concentrate on Ball and Dummy for the remaining ammo budget. Dry fire only for the movement drill that practice (Still hoping proper range environment dry fire might to help connect all the indoor dry fire back in in some small way.

i'll plan to take target and timer pics and report back (assuming there are no forum specific photo upload hurdles to trip me up). I'll plan on running all those drills 20 times or so a day in dry fire in an effort to game the system as much as possible before then.



Does this seem like a good next step for the purposes of this thread?