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Thread: Nose over toes vs. more neutral stance and pre-ignition push.

  1. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by GJM View Post
    You mention that you dry fire one to two hours daily — what do you do dry firing, and how do you connect your dry fire to your live fire?
    I'd say it varies a fair bit day to day. I'll try to line out a sample day...

    45 minute session- Focus on reloads. 2 mags loaded with dummy rounds. From slide lock press out to sight picture on A zone of a 1/3 scale USPSA target. Once sight picture is acquired immediate mad change to A zone sight picture again. Every few shots make second sight picture the head box and click the trigger. Lately without the par timer as I was getting a sloppy trigger press trying to beat it. Occasionally with it. I've been doing this for about 100 magazine changes in order to switch to using the slide lock instead of the "over the top" method. After a few thousand reps at least using the slide lock is instinctual. If I'm really moving I pull a 1.5 on this in dry fire but am considerably slower in live fire to get the actual shot off if I'm shooing an USPSA target from 10 yards. (Probably a whole extra second if I'm honest). Between picking up rounds and mags and constantly wiping my sweaty hands every few reps this eats up a big chunk of the session lately despite my 150 second of claimed actual magazine changing (facepalm).

    After 100 reloads or between picking up dummy rounds and reloading the mags I work on my press out to sight picture and first shot. I noticed that I was leaving a solid 0.2 on the table from holster draw to first shot trying to put the front sight actually in the A zone and finally realized that I was doing something wrong not to have it "magically appear" at the end of my press out. So I put a laser bullet in and work on acquiring sights from right when my hands meet after the draw to sights on target at end of press out verifying with the laser shot. I try to do a couple hundred reps from right where my hands meet after the draw, from halfway through the press out, and also from the last quarter to proper sight picture. Lately this has exposed a lot of imperfect support hand grip on my part that I've been trying to focus on.

    (As to this translating to live fire I'm generally 0.9 (for a good rep) to 1.1 in an average string if I'm shooting at 5ish yards and trying to convince myself I'm fast. But move the target out to 10 yards and I'm 1.3 all day long unless I'm just winging a shot at brown.)

    Normally at this point I'm thinking that most of the serious guys I read hate laser bullets and I put a tab of cardboard in the ejection port and work on transitions for a bit. Currently 5 1/3 size USPSA targets with a few 1/6 sized thrown over them as no shoots and partials. I alternate between two shots on each, 6 shots on each to keep a closer eye on my wavering front sight, and failure to stop on each. Then strong side hand and support side for the same.

    This normally makes me worried I'm getting sloppy with the front site and minimal stabilizing required for the out of battery dead Glock trigger so I try to do a few minutes of the wall drill afterwards.

    From here I normally use a rolling clothing rack cover with an old blanket that has a hole cut out for high/low port practice, barricade leans and stepping into/out of position drills. Lately I set up in the corner of the room, take 2 shots on all 4 dry fire targets, quick steps to the low port, shots on all targets, exit port to far side and shots on all targets. Do carpal tunnel pre-hab stretches between runs and repeat for 10-15 minutes.


    For short sessions throughout the day I'll pick one of the above and leave it set up and run it every time I get up, then reset it to a different drill and run that one every time I get up. Sometimes just 20 press outs to trigger press on an A scaled zone from 10ft.



    Hope that's not too specific. I think it represents a pretty typical day of the last couple months.

  2. #12
    I am really far down the line skill wise compared to a lot of guys here but I am wondering if your pre-ignition push isn't just a psychological thing. And I really don't know anything about psychology, but I suspect subconsciously, you are afraid of the recoil. So my thought is force your self to shoot one handed. Then shoot one handed w/ your weak hand. Shoot at a big target that is fairly close. Accuracy isn't the goal here but OTOH you don't want to be too lax. Paper plate at 10-12 feet. Start w/ a mag or 3 slow fire. Switch hands and do the same. At some point shoot a mag as fast as you can. Hey, that is usually fun and we need to have some fun in amidst all the work that we put into practice right? My thought is that once your mind realizes that shooting weak hand only (I think the most difficult for most shooters) works, the pistol isn't bouncing off your forehead, then eventually normal two hand shooting will work out w/o the pre-ignition push. This may not be a quick cure. You mentioned 100 rnd practice sessions. I'd shoot at least 70 of them one handed. Mark said, "I think "driving forward back on target to handle the recoil" is highly overrated, especially with a 9mm pistol in a G19 configuration. I've heard several top tier instructors say to just let the gun settle on it's own, without muscling it." I agree w/ this 100% until you want to pick up speed of followup shots (which I don't think you need to worry about now). The gun recoils. The gun goes up. The gun comes back down. Just let all that happen because it's all normal. I'd also cut down on the dry fire. It isn't going to help much w/ preignition push since there is no ignition.

  3. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by GJM View Post
    You mention that you dry fire one to two hours daily — what do you do dry firing, and how do you connect your dry fire to your live fire?
    Just realized I forgot to answer the second part of that. Lately I've been trying more to connect my dryfire to live fire by wearing my cap, eye, and ear protection during any session 15 minutes or longer. I started feeling very comfortable with the gun in my hands dryfire but noticed that when I was all geared up for live fire it always felt "different" with a "here we go" feeling live fire and have been concerned that my dry fire intensive but relatively low round count training regime would lead to less meaningful progress when it came to actually shooting.

    Suggestions to link the two more completely would be much appreciated.


    Last few sessions I've tried more to incorporate the Ron Avery (I think) drill of alternate ball and dummy where (if I understand it correctly) you fire the first shot live from low ready and within two second take the identical shot dummy. Then pause and repeat the process. My hope is to have my brain fail to distinguish the meaningless click from the ones that have the bang.

    Lately I've taken to doing dry fire between my live fire strings in an effort to link them more directly. Last session I fire on two 6" steel targets, then ran to a closer portion to shoot the 3 paper targets. Before every live rep, I ran it dry 5 times. If nothing else it at least helped stretch out my ammo I guess.

    I try to do the same with most of my live drills. 3-5 dry draws for every live. Draw and press to prepped trigger for every shot every target at least twice before I run it live.


    Again if I'm all wrong, doing it the hard way, or just totally missing the right stuff I'd definitely appreciate input to adjust my current routine. I've only recently built proper target stands and switched to an outdoor range where I fire at multiple targets so some of this is only a month or two old (recent).
    Last edited by NoTacTravis; 06-14-2020 at 06:11 PM.

  4. #14
    Modding this sack of shit BehindBlueI's's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CraigS View Post
    I am really far down the line skill wise compared to a lot of guys here but I am wondering if your pre-ignition push isn't just a psychological thing. And I really don't know anything about psychology, but I suspect subconsciously, you are afraid of the recoil.
    Flinching is fear. Push is usually more anticipation. You know the muzzle is going to rise, you want to push the muzzle back down to get the sights back on target, you anticipate the gun going off and start to push the sights back down...but the gun hasn't fired yet so there's no recoil to push against.
    Sorta around sometimes for some of your shitty mod needs.

  5. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by BehindBlueI's View Post
    Flinching is fear. Push is usually more anticipation. You know the muzzle is going to rise, you want to push the muzzle back down to get the sights back on target, you anticipate the gun going off and start to push the sights back down...but the gun hasn't fired yet so there's no recoil to push against.
    If I'm being honest I probably have quite a bit of both. I noticed immediate improvement when I started double plugging and historically when competing in combat sports I've always had to fight closing my eyes when being hit in the face. Fairly certain I catch myself blinking at the moment I'm supposed to be watching the sights lift at times especially because while in the moment I have times where it feels like things click and I smoothly watch the sights lift and settle and its a "special got it right feeling" not a "yep that's how it goes every shot normal shooting" thing.

    And on the anticipation, I've noticed if I'm shooting fast (for me thats 0.22-0.46 splits) I'm more able to time the sights and plant my second shot close. Although with repeatedly strings I notice the shots start to trend lower and further left if I don't stop and work ball and dummy mid-session. But at 0.75-1.0 to take my next shot I am most likely to experience pre-ignition push which I am assuming is giving me the extra time to anticipate and "brace myself" by pushing into the shot?
    Last edited by NoTacTravis; 06-14-2020 at 06:54 PM.

  6. #16
    Site Supporter OlongJohnson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NoTacTravis View Post
    But at 0.75-1.0 to take my next shot I am most likely to experience pre-ignition push which I am assuming is giving me the extra time to anticipate and "brace myself" by pushing into the shot?
    I was going to ask about this, as I caught up on the thread. That's not "slow fire," but it's far from fast, as you understand.

    It's possible you're simply anticipating. I found that stepping on the gas pedal a little bit, really focusing on just maintaining a clean, steady sight picture with a good, fast, controlled trigger press gave my brain enough to do, so it stopped running the anticipation circuit. I often find, at least with certain guns, that I am about as accurate going fast as I am going slow. Sometimes more so. I think it's because with certain triggers, going slow leads to anticipating the break.

    See what happens just going as fast as you can while staying in control. If you feel like things are getting too loose, slow down a little and tighten it up.
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  7. #17
    A question and a suggestion.

    1) You have a Glock 19, IIRC, could you explain your trigger press from the draw to first shot and from first shot to second and subsequent shots?

    2) Suggestion - I generally do most ball and dummy training with the dummies places in a specific order - live goes in first, then dummy. then live, etc. first round is live. That way when you are firing you will know when the dummy is coming and will get a good press - eyes open on front sight, no muzzle drip. The idea is to practice perfection on those shots and the perfection will transfer to the live shots. With random dummies, folks spend time beating themselves over the head when they hit a dummy 'fuck, I messed it up again' not a lot of positive energy flowing from that.

    Initially, after I've watched a shooter, I'll load their mag and slip a dummy in to show them what they are doing, and then we go to work fixing it by using the method I described above.

    Good luck.

  8. #18
    My low left hits didn't stop until I eased off my strong side death grip enough to let the trigger finger move independently.

  9. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Lehr View Post
    A question and a suggestion.

    1) You have a Glock 19, IIRC, could you explain your trigger press from the draw to first shot and from first shot to second and subsequent shots?

    2) Suggestion - I generally do most ball and dummy training with the dummies places in a specific order - live goes in first, then dummy. then live, etc. first round is live. That way when you are firing you will know when the dummy is coming and will get a good press - eyes open on front sight, no muzzle drip. The idea is to practice perfection on those shots and the perfection will transfer to the live shots. With random dummies, folks spend time beating themselves over the head when they hit a dummy 'fuck, I messed it up again' not a lot of positive energy flowing from that.

    Initially, after I've watched a shooter, I'll load their mag and slip a dummy in to show them what they are doing, and then we go to work fixing it by using the method I described above.

    Good luck.
    Thanks for taking the time!

    1) First shot- As I'm finishing my press out I'm prepping the trigger to the wall. When I see the front side in the A zone I make an effort to press briskly straight to the rear with the motion only coming from the second knuckle. If I'm looking for 0.5 splits or slower I let out to the reset and repeat for subsequent shots. If I'm "on the clock" I tend to let out "enough" and press back again fast. I wouldn't call it slapping per se since my finger isn't losing contact with the trigger but I'm not noticing any of the audible or tactile reset if I'm tryin got shoot faster than 2 shots per second.

    2) I made a point to go this route today. Live first then dummy. I was using 5 live and five dummy per mag like this for a little over half of my drills today. It frequently exposed a lot of anticipatory movement on many of the dummy rounds. Ironically when the live round came back on deck for the next shot I must have been anticipating less because the holes on paper were shrinking in a bit closer (for me).

  10. #20
    So I shot live fire today and tried to incorporate some of what I've been reading in the thread.

    Some initial take aways...

    Neutral stance- What stance? Hard pan slightly uneven Arizona desert, a timer providing the beep, and trying to focus on any single dummy round detail and all I was thinking stance wise was to bend my knees before I started. The one movement drill I did showed my stance just kind of "happened" running up to line, shooting, and running to the next line. I didn't even realize I wasn't paying much attention to it till I was driving home over-analyzing the session. Conclusion for now, stance is great to work on ingraining in dry fire maybe but not what I need to pay attention to for pre-ignition push/flinching in live fire right now.

    Single hand shooting- About 70% of my rounds were SHO or WHO. I've only done ball and dummy two handed shooting before. Wow at watching me steer the front sight wildly more when the dummy round was on deck. Oddly my WHO is far better than SHO. Splits were the same or .01 faster WHO than SHO but my WHO was far more accurate. As an example, I worked a few strings of ball and dummy with 5 of each per mag. Headbox at 7-8 yards. SHO I was only 3 or 4 of the five live shots even in the headbox. WHO I was 5 for 5 in the head box each time. (I know. I suck that I can't at least place the shot every time on demand.)

    Can still only seem to hold one detail in my head at a time and everything else goes autopilot- Focus on a hard grip and everything else is on autopilot. Think about running fast to a position and I barely remember whether the plan was to take 3 shots at the target or 2 from that position.


    Thanks for the inputs so far. Corrections, directions, and "that's not at all what we meant" adjustments appreciated.

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