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Thread: Nose over toes vs. more neutral stance and pre-ignition push.

  1. #1

    Nose over toes vs. more neutral stance and pre-ignition push.

    I'm a relatively new shooter. Fired my first instructed shots last August, rented guns weekly, and then bought my first firearm (Glock 19) last November.

    Pre-ignition push is a bit of a constant battle for me with the classic low and left flinch just before the bang. I've been doing the dummy round thing just about every shooting session (once per week live fire with at least every other string having a couple dummy rounds) and have been getting some gradual improvements.

    Recently I've been experimenting a bit more with stance and have noticed a big effect it has on my pre-ignition push issues. Nose over toes, pressing out with "aggression" and driving forward back on target to handle the recoil has been most of my novice focus in the past in this area. Lately though (past couple of weeks), I've been trying more of a neutral stance though and notice my live fire shots grouping tighter and noticeably less pre-ignition push (although still present with the slight but obvious flinch when the surprise dummy round hits).

    By "more neutral stance" I mean more of the classic old school martial artist "horse stance" just not as deep and with one foot ever so slightly forward. I grew up with many years of the classic McDojo squared stance, squared shoulders short punches straight out to center of mass TaeKwondo drills of the 80's. I realized recently I'd been using a very similar style of gun handling to this lately. I'm wondering though if the more neutral stance is a beginner's crutch to cover the deeper issues of my shot anticipation here.

    As nose over toes and weight shifts forward it makes sense that it exaggerates the effect of the pre-ignition push.

    So I'm wondering, is my more neutral stance a cover up for my deeper errors and only showing temporary improvement on the target or is a more neutral stance perfectly acceptable and maybe nose over toes in my novice mind was leaning out too far. I've definitely noticed that nose over toes tends to leave me rolling my shoulders forward and turtling a bit while a more neutral stance tends to leave me 'head up, proud shoulders'.


    In case it's relevant, I dry fire 1-2 hours daily, and live fire weekly ~100 rounds (ammo budget is limited). The pandemic has put in person coaching and signing up for matches on hiatus for now so I'm hoping some of the pistol-forums experts might take pity and shed some light.

    Thanks for reading my new shooter's amateur hour take on things, any help will be much appreciated and practiced daily.




    *edited for spelling and grammar errors.
    Last edited by NoTacTravis; 06-14-2020 at 01:45 PM.

  2. #2
    Site Supporter OlongJohnson's Avatar
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  3. #3
    Thanks for the link! I've watched bits and pieces of Miculeks stuff a few months back. I'll watch that one in its entirety before tomorrow's dry fire practice.

  4. #4
    Modding this sack of shit BehindBlueI's's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NoTacTravis View Post
    In case it's relevant, I dry fire 1-2 hours daily
    Just as a word of caution, make sure you are not just going through the motions while dry firing. If you have the mental fortitude for 1-2 hours of productive dry fire with good concentration and being completely mentally present that is awesome and you'll see real improvements in live fire. If you get sloppy, do reps with a wandering mind, etc. you may be burning in bad habits. That meaningful practice is what separates the real pros from schlubs like me.
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  5. #5
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    I can sum up Jerry's 25 min video for you: You don't have to do a whole lot to make it happen - it's pretty easy to do - just bring the pistol to your dominant eye and make it happen.

    I have massive respect for him as a phenomenal shooter, but he's not really the best instructor.
    Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by BehindBlueI's View Post
    Just as a word of caution, make sure you are not just going through the motions while dry firing. If you have the mental fortitude for 1-2 hours of productive dry fire with good concentration and being completely mentally present that is awesome and you'll see real improvements in live fire. If you get sloppy, do reps with a wandering mind, etc. you may be burning in bad habits. That meaningful practice is what separates the real pros from schlubs like me.
    Good point and thank you. Ive definitely been guilty of of playing podcasts in the background and losing some focus. The longer times mentioned are generally an aggregate. I work from home so going to the dryfire room and putting in 5 minutes of a drill every time I get up adds up surprisingly fast over the day. 4 days a week I do one long 45min-1 hour session and several 5-10 minute sessions spaced throughout the day. The other 3 days are two 15-20 minute sessions (one morning one evening).

    I spent a decade or so in BJJ making up for my misspent youth in more traditional martial arts and training 3-4 hours per day there is common. So the commitment to drilling seems relatively minimal in dry fire. Although I like to think I'm building refinement over slop you've definitely properly called me out on a wandering focus as I've just taken to wearing muffs with the active listening turned off while dryfiring to help with my wandering focus in the long sessions.

  7. #7
    Modding this sack of shit BehindBlueI's's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NoTacTravis View Post
    I work from home so going to the dryfire room and putting in 5 minutes of a drill every time I get up adds up surprisingly fast over the day. 4 days a week I do one long 45min-1 hour session and several 5-10 minute sessions spaced throughout the day. The other 3 days are two 15-20 minute sessions (one morning one evening).
    Sounds like you've got the self-awareness down, then. I know I can't do much more then 10-15 minutes in a row without my mind wandering or going blank. It's smart to have a trigger, though, something you do that automatically reminds you it's time to dry fire.
    Sorta around sometimes for some of your shitty mod needs.

  8. #8
    Multiple choice options:

    1. Toes-nose stance positions you so that it makes easier for you to transmit unneeded inputs into your gun. The pre-ignition push can come from hands or shoulders or both, so maybe something plays out biomechanically.

    2. Lean forward stance is generally more aggressive than neutral and this physical expression of aggressiveness may lead to a mental tension as opposed to staying overall neutral, physically and mentally. Mental tension will certainly cause physical tension. I've experienced that quite often. This something you need to sort out yourself through introspection and live fire. Dry might not help as much.

    3. I've no idea what's happening to you.

    4. All of the above.

    Since neutral seems to be giving your better results, I'd start with figuring out if your hands or your mind are more relaxed when shooting from that stance. Maybe it'll help.
    Doesn't read posts longer than two paragraphs.

  9. #9
    You mention that you dry fire one to two hours daily — what do you do dry firing, and how do you connect your dry fire to your live fire?
    Likes pretty much everything in every caliber.

  10. #10
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    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by NoTacTravis View Post
    I've been doing the dummy round thing just about every shooting session (once per week live fire with at least every other string having a couple dummy rounds) and have been getting some gradual improvements.

    Recently I've been experimenting a bit more with stance and have noticed a big effect it has on my pre-ignition push issues. Nose over toes, pressing out with "aggression" and driving forward back on target to handle the recoil has been most of my novice focus
    I struggled with pre-ignition push too. Dummy and Ball eventually got me thru that phase. I put "dummy" first because I load about half the magazine with dummy rounds. I think that might be Ernest Langdon's advice, but I'm not sure. (Hopefully somebody can correct me if that should be attributed to somebody else).

    I think "driving forward back on target to handle the recoil" is highly overrated, especially with a 9mm pistol in a G19 configuration. I've heard several top tier instructors say to just let the gun settle on it's own, without muscling it. (I'd have pull out my class notes to confirm who).

    Good luck and keep us posted.

    Edited to acknowledge this forum includes much better shooters than me, and my advice is worth exactly what you paid for it.
    Last edited by Mark D; 06-14-2020 at 05:08 PM.

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