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Thread: Carbine fundamentals/dry fire exercises?

  1. #21
    The R in F.A.R.T RevolverRob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rob_s View Post
    Rifle shooting, at least at the distances most people seem to shoot them, is easy. Particularly if you come to the AR with passable pistol skills to begin with.

    Manipulations, on the other hand, seem to be hard for folks. Again, particularly if you come to the AR with passable pistol skills.

    I would suggest dry fire with the AR should include manipulations more so than trigger presses. People seem to get all sorts of confused as to which hand should grab the charging handle, how to engage the bolt catch, how to release it, order of operations for loading, speed loading, e regency loading, and unloading, etc.
    So with this in mind - who does a good job demonstrating fundamentals either via video or via book?

  2. #22
    Site Supporter rob_s's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HCM View Post
    First what is your purpose ? Not doing push pull to shave some time is fine for games. For real world use it's false economy.

    The inefficiency of trying to ingrain two different reloads to a level of unconscious competence will balance it out.
    I don’t necessarily disagree that a neophyte should perhaps just have one method , but I totally disagree that someone can’t progress to the point of subconscious competence such that you know if you’re reloading fold forward or bolt rear.
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  3. #23
    Site Supporter rob_s's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RevolverRob View Post
    So with this in mind - who does a good job demonstrating fundamentals either via video or via book?
    That’s an interesting question, and one that my “retired internet celebrity” ass is probably not qualified to answer in 2020. My recollection is that Kyle Lamb had some good stuff but I don’t recall if that was in books or videos or classes.

    One thing I will say, by the end of my gunskool merit badge collecting, I didn’t do everything any one gun God’s way. I topped up like Haley, reloaded like Lamb, chamber checked like Cain...
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  4. #24
    Another vote for working manipulations over just trigger presses. Working the reloads, shoulder transitions, deploying the folded AR pistol out of my backpack etc from home allows me to focus on just those things, which is where 90% of the fumbling comes from. I can practice deploying the PDW from the bag, stuffing a spare mag into my left front pocket, dryfire at the cardboard target, reload from the pocket. The IPSC shot timer app is a good way to keep track your progress.

    I still have Magpul's Art of the Dynamic Carbine I&II kicking around here on Betamax or Laser Disc. When I got those sometime around 2008-09, both my kids were babies or my oldest was and my youngest was on the way, and I really didn't have the time or resources for classes and travel expenses. I've never been a Costa or Haley nut-hugger, and they've distanced themselves from that material, but they were invaluable to me at that point in my life and I've loaned them out to people several times over the years who were in the same place as I when I bought them.

  5. #25
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    Manipulations are a favorite dry skill to practice. I like dummy round over dummy mags, but will use either. Brownells has bags of 100 dummy rounds for a reasonable price.

    I may be showing my age here, but up drills, varying shooting positions and supports, carry positions, etc do most of what I need done dry. There was recently a youtube video from a current SMU type commenting on how useful-and underutilized- up drills are. With imagination you can add shooting on the move and other cool guy skills into the humble up drill. Too many people preach the fundimentals while pushing too fast into "advanced".

    I have not tried them, but Tident Concepts has their decks of cards, which include dry practice.

    https://www.tridentconcepts.com/taco...ining-program/

    Thinking about giving them a whirl.

    pat

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by HCM View Post
    First what is your purpose ? Not doing push pull to shave some time is fine for games. For real world use it's false economy.

    The inefficiency of trying to ingrain two different reloads to a level of unconscious competence will balance it out.
    My purpose is to get another round into the rifle so I can start shooting it again as soon as possible on a bolt lock reload. I'm not sure what you are doing with a rifle where spending the least amount of time reloading isn't the goal but efficiency isn't just for "games." I would be hard pressed to call anyone who was unable to grasp two different kinds of reloads being used in two different situations to be anywhere close to competent after the amount of under-educated and semi-literate people I have seen be able to grasp the basics of the concept with little issue.

    For your typical new AR shooter it only takes 15 minutes to learn how to put a fresh magazine in the rifle while retaining the partial, a task which they will consciously decide to complete when they have time. The bolt lock reload is the one that they should be spending the time to become subconsciously competent at because it should be developed as an immediate response to bolt lock. I have yet to see anyone push-pull their way through a Crazy 8 drill.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by user12358 View Post
    My purpose is to get another round into the rifle so I can start shooting it again as soon as possible on a bolt lock reload. I'm not sure what you are doing with a rifle where spending the least amount of time reloading isn't the goal but efficiency isn't just for "games." I would be hard pressed to call anyone who was unable to grasp two different kinds of reloads being used in two different situations to be anywhere close to competent after the amount of under-educated and semi-literate people I have seen be able to grasp the basics of the concept with little issue.

    For your typical new AR shooter it only takes 15 minutes to learn how to put a fresh magazine in the rifle while retaining the partial, a task which they will consciously decide to complete when they have time. The bolt lock reload is the one that they should be spending the time to become subconsciously competent at because it should be developed as an immediate response to bolt lock. I have yet to see anyone push-pull their way through a Crazy 8 drill.
    If (eventually when) the mag doesn’t fully seat and /or drops out when the bolt goes forward you are not shooting again “as soon as possible.” I have seen that happen enough that making sure I can consistently start shooting again outweighs maybe being able to start shooting again or maybe fucking around fixing a mag that did not fully seat.

    But you do you.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by RevolverRob View Post
    So with this in mind - who does a good job demonstrating fundamentals either via video or via book?
    Book - Green Eyes Black Rifles is a place to start.

    The late Pat Rogers videos are available via Panteo’s streaming service.

    These are not THE way but they are a good place to start.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Nephrology View Post
    So as a long time handgun shooter, I benefitted quite a bit from ebooks by people like Ben Stoeger, who combined good, practical advice on the fundamentals of handgun marksmanship with dry fire exercises that I could use to practice the skills in question (drawstroke, target transitions, etc).

    As I keep saying, I am a total AR/carbine noob. Is there a good carbine equivalent to the Stoeger e-books? Now that I have quite a few ARs that I have dialled in and trust, I want to actually get good with them. Live fire drills seem easier to find, but not sure if anyone have a book on AR dry fire. Have spent enough time shooting from bench/prone to feel like I am getting the hang of some foundational rifle marksmanship stuff, so definitely want to emphasize skills like low ready to first shot, reloads, etc.

    Appreciate any and all resources. thanks!
    Not criticizing you at all, so hope you don't take it that way.
    In my opinion/experience, you really cannot learn what you are saying you want to learn, from books/videos and then training on your own.
    Having said that, training with legitimate guys is not cheap and neither are the costs associated with same (especially right now with the spike in ammo prices).
    However, if you do your homework and then spend money training with a legitimate instructor who knows how to properly teach/train, it's worth every dime spent.

    As a long time fan of Clint Smith/Thunder Ranch and having trained with him, suggest look at/consider:

    1) Look at some of his videos on Youtube and Instagram (I have an Instagram account specifically so I can look at the TR account content) and see if you like his style. If you don't care for what you see/hear, disregard all that follows. The recent videos you see on his yt/instagram page are an accurate representation of Clint's demeanor as he does not "act" for the camera.

    2) Get Clint's books - Urban Rifle and Urban Rifle 2. The man knows what he's talking about after 50 years using, training and teaching use of the AR.
    Clint also has several training videos you can purchase to go along with the books.
    There's also a Thunder Ranch Master USB Collection with hours of content available for purchase.

    3) Take the Thunder Ranch Urban Rifle course.


    Also suggest look at/consider:

    Paul Howe/CSAT (Combat Shooting & Tactics) in Nacogdoches, TX.
    Paul just released a new book and has a video on his website addressing the reason(s) for the new book.

    I have Paul's new book on order and having read his previous books, already know it will be excellent.
    Paul has several videos online that will give you a sense for his demeanor/style. Additionally he also has training videos you can purchase.

    I have not yet had the opportunity to train at CSAT, however, it's on my short list.
    A few guys I know and trust have trained with Paul, and I trust their experience/endorsement.


    Obviously there are other trainers out there who are good to go.
    The specific suggestions above might be a good fit for you based on your stated goals/objectives.


    Finally, suggest consider a dedicated .22lr AR upper to reduce training/ammo costs running live fire drills on your own.
    I have a Tactical Solutions AR M4 .22LR Complete upper and it's been very reliable in that role.
    I got mine from CSTactical (they currently have them in stock).
    If you get one, be sure to also get a "pressure plug" to keep the bolt properly seated (I have a TACCOM Pressure plug, but they are no longer available).
    Here's a pressure plug that looks to be good to go:
    https://borebuddy.com/product/22lr-plug/
    Last edited by tango-papa; 07-12-2020 at 02:24 PM.

  10. #30
    THE THIRST MUTILATOR Nephrology's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tango-papa View Post
    Not criticizing you at all, so hope you don't take it that way.
    In my opinion/experience, you really cannot learn what you are saying you want to learn, from books/videos and then training on your own.
    Having said that, training with legitimate guys is not cheap and neither are the costs associated with same (especially right now with the spike in ammo prices).
    Definitely and no offense taken - handguns are no different. I am a total novice with carbines so I would definitely benefit from a class - just not something I want to do right now with COVID, etc. Figured I'd make the most of what I can do by myself in the meantime.


    Quote Originally Posted by tango-papa View Post
    Not criticizing you at all, so hope you don't take it that way.

    As a long time fan of Clint Smith/Thunder Ranch and having trained with him, suggest look at/consider:

    1) Look at some of his videos on Youtube and Instagram (I have an Instagram account specifically so I can look at the TR account content) and see if you like his style. If you don't care for what you see/hear, disregard all that follows. The recent videos you see on his yt/instagram page are an accurate representation of Clint's demeanor as he does not "act" for the camera.

    2) Get Clint's books - Urban Rifle and Urban Rifle 2. The man knows what he's talking about after 50 years using, training and teaching use of the AR.
    Clint also has several training videos you can purchase to go along with the books.
    There's also a Thunder Ranch Master USB Collection with hours of content available for purchase.

    3) Take the Thunder Ranch Urban Rifle course.


    Also suggest suggest look at/consider:

    Paul Howe/CSAT (Combat Shooting & Tactics) in Nacogdoches, TX.
    Paul just released a new book and has a video on his website addressing the reason(s) for the new book.

    I have Paul's new book on order and having read his previous books, already know it will be excellent.
    Paul has several videos online that will give you a sense for his demeanor/style. Additionally he also has training videos you can purchase.

    I have not yet had the opportunity to train at CSAT, however, it's on my short list.
    A few guys I know and trust have trained with Paul, and I trust their experience/endorsement.


    Obviously there are other trainers out there who are good to go.
    The specific suggestions above might be a good fit for you based on your stated goals/objectives.


    Finally, suggest consider a dedicated .22lr AR upper to reduce training/ammo costs running live fire drills on your own.
    I have a Tactical Solutions AR M4 .22LR Complete upper and it's been very reliable in that role.
    I got mine from CSTactical (they currently have them in stock).
    If you get one, be sure to also get a "pressure plug" to keep the bolt properly seated (I have a TACCOM Pressure plug, but they are no longer available).
    Here's a pressure plug that looks to be good to go:
    https://borebuddy.com/product/22lr-plug/
    Awesome - thank you! That's all great advice.

    I still have a good amount of .22LR ammo as I rarely shoot it. A .22 upper isn't a bad idea. I'll look into it.

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