VP9 is a German Matryoshka doll

[Borderland]

I had two VP9’s at one time, sold them both.. When the videos of the striker being dropped just by getting smacked (and not all that hard) with a mallet, I decided that was a rather serious flaw, and sold them both, I carried DA/SA, LEM guns for the next couple of years, before trying Glocks again.. In the past I’ve had a horrible experience with Glocks, and BTF issues, I know I’ve went through 7-8, gen 3-4 g19’s two g21’s and one g17, all had erratic ejection, or would throw brass at me... Then I tried a g45 MOS, that had the breechface cut, no BTF, erratic ejection , I bought it, and a few weeks later bought a Gen 5 g19 MOS, along with Trijicon RMR’s for both..I can honestly say Glock finally resolved the BTF issue.

I never fully understood how HK could take a simple concept like a striker fired pistol and make it so complicated....If HK was going to do something, how about offering their DA/SA pistols with the slide cut for a Red dot? And, while they’re at it, how about making an effort to improve their DA/SA triggers? Imagine a HK45c, with a 8lb DA trigger, and a 4lb SA trigger, with the slide cut for a Red Dot..

HK is slow to innovate. I don't think the trigger is that bad on my HK45. If I did I wouldn't have just purchased a P30. I don't like strikers so never owned one. I've shot a few Glocks though and the triggers seem to be a strong point.

[TicTacticalTimmy]

It's really too bad the Japanese don't make pistols for the US market.

I'll take a Lexus over a BMW any day.

The Japanese dont even make pistols for their own market. The JSDF recently adopted the VP9.

[ralph]

HK is slow to innovate. I don't think the trigger is that bad on my HK45. If I did I wouldn't have just purchased a P30. I don't like strikers so never owned one. I've shot a few Glocks though and the triggers seem to be a strong point.

HK DA/SA triggers seem to vary a bit from pistol to pistol, some really aren’t bad,quite useable, others, well, could use some help.. I have a HK45ct, while the DA trigger is smooth, it’s stiff, a lighter hammer spring would probably do the trick, buuut, The HK45c, hammer spring works only with the HK45c..and nothing else... At least with a USP, you have options..As far as I know, nobody in the aftermarket offers a lighter hammer spring for the HK45c, The only other options is LEM. I only went to the Glocks because I needed a Red Dot that could be easily and quickly mounted, My left eye is starting to develop a cataract, and while it’s not big enough to remove, its making seeing the front sight difficult,( blurry) shooting beyond 10-12 yds is difficult, with a RDS, 15 yds (far as I can go at the indoor range I frequent) is no problem.. I’m kicking around the idea of getting one of my HK45c’s slide milled.. The fact that Glock resolved the BTF, erratic ejection issues, had a MOS pistol ready to go, plus I had a stash of mags from my previous forays into Glockland, made the choice easy..

[19852+]

For some reason I enjoy discussions regarding national design and manufacturing tendencies. German vs. Italian, Austrian, US, Japan, British, etc. As a participant on a firearms board we all have an interest in firearms design but these national tendencies seem to go beyond firearms.

[JodyH]

@JodyH are you done with the 9mm 1911 experiment?

As a carry gun yes, as a range toy for maintaining 1911 proficiency I'll keep it around.
10+1 in a 19X/VP9 size pistol just bugs me.
The VP9 is almost as soft shooting and almost as easy on my elbows as the 9mm 1911.

[gato naranja]

Damn thing is typical German over-engineering, why use one part when you can use three to do the same thing.
Just like a Matryoshka doll, you have a pin inside a spring inside another pin and spring.

Having paid little attention to the VP9, this sent me in search of exploded diagrams. The first time I detail stripped an HK rifle, I was sort of surprised by all the separate components (whether truly separate or part of a subassembly); after all, wasn't this the descendant of the "easy to produce" StuG 44? That was a teachable moment vis-a-vis ease of production vs a parts count.

To be fair, I used to think John M. Browning never used one part when he could use two or three, the 1911 inclusive (it took me a long time to understand why someone would ever want a separate plunger tube and grip bushings).

Context. Always the context.

[JodyH]

For some reason I enjoy discussions regarding national design and manufacturing tendencies. German vs. Italian, Austrian, US, Japan, British, etc. As a participant on a firearms board we all have an interest in firearms design but these national tendencies seem to go beyond firearms.

As the owner of Italian, Austrian and Japanese motorcycles I can only say stereotypes exist for a reason.
Japanese bikes are appliances built by the same robots that build toasters and designed by guys who trim Bonsai trees for fun.
Italian motorcycles are passionately built on the Friday before a holiday, designed by guys who have a supermodel Guma on the side.
Austrian bikes are meticulously engineered by Germans then assembled by hungover Italians on the Monday after a holiday.

[P30]

As the owner of Italian, Austrian and Japanese motorcycles I can only say stereotypes exist for a reason.

I ride a Honda CBR 600 RR, 2007 model, since 2007. Very good bike, still the lightest production bike with at least 600cc on the planet. My buddy rides a BMW S 1000 R, 2014 or '15 model. Very good bike, great ABS. Both bikes are very reliable and perform very well.

Do you know that Ducati is owned by German automotive manufacturer Audi since 2012? Audi is a member of the VW group. I think the new Ducatis are great and very reliable. Italian design meets German engineering, in a very cool way. Best of both worlds, I suppose. But very expensive, I don't want to spend that much many for a motorbike. So Ducati is a German/Italian mix, now. A simple stereotype does not fit Ducati anymore.

I'm not an expert on firearm design and manufacturing at all. But I tend to agree that the SFP9/VP9 unfortunately violates the KISS principle.



PS:
If anybody is interested: I've got the SFP9 exploded-view drawing and corresponding parts list as PDF in good quality. Could not upload it here, file is 9 MB big.

[19852+]

In the course of my job/career I have used a lot of outboard motors. All the common ones at least. I've had the pleasure of repairing them or getting them repaired. One outboard mechanic told me that "Honda's are so complicated it's amazing they work, Tohatsu's are so rock simple it's amazing they work and Yamaha seems to have gotten the formula down right". All are Japanese but have different levels of complexity.
During WW2 the combatants all took different approaches to weapons and strategy, aircraft especially. As an example the Japanese preferred light and quick aircraft that could not absorb any punishment, the Bonsai spirit was supposed to carry the day. Whereas US aircraft were built rugged with heavy firepower. I'm sure we all can come up with many different examples.

If my history is correct HK pioneered the poly frame handgun, came out with the squeeze cocker and gas delayed blow back.

[JonInWA]

Perhaps enthusiast, but maybe not tinkerer.

I suspect there is a whole lot more tinkering going on with Glock's simply because you can. I think most folks are more like JonInWa where they are less likely to fiddle with the insides of their HK's.

My point isn't so much that I can't necessaily perform a detailed disassembly/reassembly on my HK VP and/or P30L, it's that to to so I'd pretty much need to be an an administrative setting (and a clean and well-lit one), and preferably with some more specialized tools for several of the HK pistol's components. And there are some tricks to HK's, particularly in reassembly that really require savant-like skills or proper training and/or adult supervision. Yeah, there's ample YouTube guidance and some very helpful detailed walk-throughs on the HKPro forum, but unless you REALLY know what you're doing...

A Glock can easily be detail disassembled and reassembled in the field, for the most part with a simple punch (or even a field-expediant punch).

HK techs have told me that they can often tell when an untrained/uncertified individual has performed detailed disassemblies/reassemblies of HK pistols, which in and of itself can potentially void the HK warranty.

Arguably, HK's are over-designed, with over-strength materiels, so that the average person simply has no necessity or reason to perform detailed disassemblies-at least in most likely situations that most users guns are likely to be exposed to . To me, that's perfectly acceptable-until you're out in the boonies and are faced with an actual need to perform such-such as when the gun is exposed to pervasive fine grit, or takes an immersion into silty water.

That's why I personally fell very comfortable in taking my HKs as PDWs on day hikes with my wife and as an EDC/duty gun in most of my daily circumstances/environments, but am much less likely to on an extended, isolated wilderness trip or hunt.

FWIW in this discussion, I'm far more comfortable in performing a detailed disassembly on a Beretta 92 (and in fact actually have) , which is inherently fairly parts-intensive, than I would be performing the same on either of my HKs.

Best, Jon