1033 Program Leads to Increased UOF

[TGS]

Article from 2017. Have we discussed this article in particular yet?

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/ful..._ms8QKhqHOpjI&

[Poconnor]

I skimmed it. Seems like the chicken and the egg. I can’t imagine departments that were already Doing a lot of high risk warrants being like “let’s do more because we got an MRAP!!”
But I have seen a few tac teams that are rarely used act like “we get to play with our toys!!” I wonder if they looked at teams before and after they received gear.
I tried to talk my department into taking advantage of the program after my experience at hurricane Katrina. I realized that we did not have the equipment for 24/7 operations if officers could not return home. I got sent to Katrina with my national guard unit. I lived in a circus tent at a sewage treatment. Another company in my BN stayed at a local high school. They had showers and a pool. My idea was to team with our high school and place a conex outside the gym with cots, sleeping bags, poncho liners and such for emergencies. Partner with the Red Cross so the gym could also be used for people displaced from their homes in the case of apartment fires or other situations .
Nobody wanted to hear it.

[JDD]

I skimmed it. Seems like the chicken and the egg. I can’t imagine departments that were already Doing a lot of high risk warrants being like “let’s do more because we got an MRAP!!”
But I have seen a few tac teams that are rarely used act like “we get to play with our toys!!” I wonder if they looked at teams before and after they received gear.
I tried to talk my department into taking advantage of the program after my experience at hurricane Katrina. I realized that we did not have the equipment for 24/7 operations if officers could not return home. I got sent to Katrina with my national guard unit. I lived in a circus tent at a sewage treatment. Another company in my BN stayed at a local high school. They had showers and a pool. My idea was to team with our high school and place a conex outside the gym with cots, sleeping bags, poncho liners and such for emergencies. Partner with the Red Cross so the gym could also be used for people displaced from their homes in the case of apartment fires or other situations .
Nobody wanted to hear it.

My biggest issue with this research, is that their dataset was Connecticut, Maine, and New Hampshire - chosen because the data was available... (They also looked at Nevada, but not the same way). They acknowledge that there are low crime rates in New England, but they feel that it is a "hard case" that further supports their research. It looks like they tried to factor in various things like population, income, and drug use, but I can't help but think that the study would have been an order of magnitude stronger if it had pulled a broader slice of 'Murica, or factored in population density as well as population.

I can't imagine that the Aroostook County (6,800 mi^2 ,Population 70k ~ 11 per mi^2) is going to compare easily with the various police departments in New Haven county (800mi^2, Population 860k ~ 1,000 per mi^2)

I am also not sure that some of the high value individual items like various fixed wing aircraft and helicopters don't seriously throw off their dataset. They quote a few studies that folks who get military gear want to practice military ops with it, but I am really struggling to imagine what high-speed/low-drag operations the Presque Isle Police Department is doing with their $370k truck mounted de-icer and 50 pairs of snowshoes, or that the Maine Division of Forest Protection is doing with their $600k "aircraft, fixed wing."

It's mostly nit picking, but I think the study would have been stronger if they cast a broader net, and potentially looked at what was being transferred, vs dollar amounts.

[TGS]

That's not nitpicking, @JDD.

That's destroying the study's validity and findings.

[Cookie Monster]

My biggest issue with this research, is that their dataset was Connecticut, Maine, and New Hampshire - chosen because the data was available... (They also looked at Nevada, but not the same way). They acknowledge that there are low crime rates in New England, but they feel that it is a "hard case" that further supports their research. It looks like they tried to factor in various things like population, income, and drug use, but I can't help but think that the study would have been an order of magnitude stronger if it had pulled a broader slice of 'Murica, or factored in population density as well as population.

I can't imagine that the Aroostook County (6,800 mi^2 ,Population 70k ~ 11 per mi^2) is going to compare easily with the various police departments in New Haven county (800mi^2, Population 860k ~ 1,000 per mi^2)

I am also not sure that some of the high value individual items like various fixed wing aircraft and helicopters don't seriously throw off their dataset. They quote a few studies that folks who get military gear want to practice military ops with it, but I am really struggling to imagine what high-speed/low-drag operations the Presque Isle Police Department is doing with their $370k truck mounted de-icer and 50 pairs of snowshoes, or that the Maine Division of Forest Protection is doing with their $600k "aircraft, fixed wing."

It's mostly nit picking, but I think the study would have been stronger if they cast a broader net, and potentially looked at what was being transferred, vs dollar amounts.

I don’t know about the other but I work in Forestry. The aircraft could be used to recon and grid areas for fires just as a practice or post lightening storm, could be used as an air attack platform during a wildfire (basically an aerial observer), if mounted with sensors would survey for insect and diseases and forest health, aerial photos which are a real help for planning and implementing logging and the effects of logging, wildlife survey of several kinds, and maybe something else. My experience is in the West so those things may or may not occur in Maine.

[knownothing]

I don’t know about the other but I work in Forestry. The aircraft could be used to recon and grid areas for fires just as a practice or post lightening storm, could be used as an air attack platform during a wildfire (basically an aerial observer), if mounted with sensors would survey for insect and diseases and forest health, aerial photos which are a real help for planning and implementing logging and the effects of logging, wildlife survey of several kinds, and maybe something else. My experience is in the West so those things may or may not occur in Maine.

Echoing what Cookie Monster said, I am a Forester and in the South, the state forestry commissions will fly the forest-heavy portions of the state every year to look for beetle kills and report that to the landowners where they are seen. They are used to a lesser extent down here as an aerial platorm to fight fires.

[JDD]

Echoing what Cookie Monster said, I am a Forester and in the South, the state forestry commissions will fly the forest-heavy portions of the state every year to look for beetle kills and report that to the landowners where they are seen. They are used to a lesser extent down here as an aerial platorm to fight fires.

Absolutely! Don't get me wrong, I was using the planes as an example of big ticket items that don't necessarily contribute to a culture of military police. (That said, I seem to remember some sort of train wreck thread here in LE about a local swat team that was trying to get jump qualified)

I don't necessarily disagree with the study, I just think they have not really supported their point well. If I was going to "fix" it, I would correct for population density, factor in size of the department, and possibly look at Type of equipment granted. Those Cessnas and Hueys (and the de-icing truck) are probably not contributing to a departments "military culture", in fact, I bet they are a really good deal for the taxpayer if the assets are a core part of the mission and departments were going to buy the hardware anyway. What I want to see, is a comparison between medium and small town departments that decide a MRAP is a good investment and use of their training/maintenance bucks, and medium/small town departments that decide they don't need an MRAP.

[DpdG]

Being that I’m in the area sampled, I’ve got a couple other questions regarding the study:
-How did they test for causation? I suspect agencies taking advantage of the 1033 program might have a pre-existing culture that qualifies as “militarized.” The MRAP is likely a sign/signal of a militarized culture within the agency, not the cause of that culture.
-What comparative controls were employed in their study? An example using the MRAP might be to compare like sized/mission agencies with MRAPs vs those with civilian armored vehicles such as a Bearcat.

I suspect the use of DRMO for “aggressive” equipment is the sign of a “militarized” agency culture, not the cause of it. Taking away the equipment will not change that culture, only deprive the constituents of the benefits that equipment can provide or cause increased expense. Bearcats aren’t cheap, so that MRAP might save the community some serious coin if it needs an armored vehicle.

[JDD]

Being that I’m in the area sampled, I’ve got a couple other questions regarding the study:
-How did they test for causation? I suspect agencies taking advantage of the 1033 program might have a pre-existing culture that qualifies as “militarized.” The MRAP is likely a sign/signal of a militarized culture within the agency, not the cause of that culture.
-What comparative controls were employed in their study? An example using the MRAP might be to compare like sized/mission agencies with MRAPs vs those with civilian armored vehicles such as a Bearcat.

I suspect the use of DRMO for “aggressive” equipment is the sign of a “militarized” agency culture, not the cause of it. Taking away the equipment will not change that culture, only deprive the constituents of the benefits that equipment can provide or cause increased expense. Bearcats aren’t cheap, so that MRAP might save the community some serious coin if it needs an armored vehicle.

I like the way you are looking at it. I suppose there is also the possiblity for a department to want a Bearcat because of their culture vs mission justification - pitch it to the city council or whoever holds the purse strings - and after being denied, come back with the MaxxPro they got from Uncle Sams used junkers.

[DpdG]

I guess that is possible, but I would think if the fiscal agency refused to fund the Bearcat purely for fiscal reasons, they wouldn't have too much issue with the free MRAP. If the funding were refused for reasons of principle, I would think it very short sighted for the agency to go around them. Agencies are answerable to the community through funding, so to go against their wishes could jeopardize their operating budget.

Back on point, the only MRAP in NH LE hands that I'm aware of is a county sheriff's office, an agency that is not a full service. They have task forces (narc, fugitive, etc.) and some proactive patrol function, but are not the primary call takers for any LE services. I suspect the culture drove the acquisition, not the other way around.