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Thread: Police Shoot Unarmed Man In the Face Point Blank With Tear Gas Canister.

  1. #11
    Site Supporter DocGKR's Avatar
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    I have direct experience treating individuals hit with 12 ga and 40 mm launched impact loads--bad things happen when they hit the face and head.
    Facts matter...Feelings Can Lie

  2. #12
    Are we sure it was actually a projectile/greanade rather than a blast dispersion round such as this:

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    https://www.directgovsource.com/prod...0-mm-round-oc/

    That little snippet precisely illustrates one of the major problems of riot control formations - the initial officer left the 'formation' to approach the individual before spraying him with OC, the second officer, did the same before firing whatever he fired.

    Despite the 'play stupid games....' response that we might have, such actions tend to 'legitimize' acts of violence/resistance in the minds of protestors who may not have been active participants.

    Simply put, if that snippet airs on TV tonight, who are the majority of viewers going to think were the bad guys?

    Clearly, the officers involved had had their fill of the hijinks, which very well may have been a result of too much time on the riot line. Relieving personnel is one of the problems in riot control.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by BehindBlueI's View Post
    I'm not a grenadier but I had to have the familiarization training so that I could understand their utilization. Many munitions can be direct fired or skip fired. Skip fired is for shorter range so that the tear gas canister loses velocity before getting to the crowd. Direct fire still isn't supposed to target an individual but is for longer range.

    The skip rounds I was thinking were the ones with wooden or hard rubber pucks (baton rounds). Maybe they are still in use somewhere, but I don't think anyone local to hear still uses that type due to the unpredictable nature of skipping.
    Skip rounds are still in use.

  4. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by jetfire View Post
    In the 203 instruction book, the block that talks about ammo types says that non-lethal rounds like gas are lethal when fired directly at a person.
    A lot of agencies went to the term "Less Lethal" because the term than could be misconstrued like there was zero chance. Which was shortly proven whe the firse gen of bean bag round went like a frisbee right between the ribs killing the guy At least hat version was relayed by the ALS guys at the time.

    BOP likes the term Less Lethal Delivery system even with the orange 870s because saying you "delivered it" sounds better to agency attorney than shot it

  5. #15
    Site Supporter Coyotesfan97's Avatar
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    I watched it several times. I’m pretty sure Dan is right. It’s a muzzle dispersion round and the wind took away most of the agent. Gas rounds are moving about 350-400 FPS. A solid gas round to the face probably would’ve dropped him instantly With a strong chance of killing him. If it was a burning round it’d either be a solid round or a bunch of little canisters like tea candles stacked on top of each other.

    I’ve shot a lot of muzzle dispersion rounds. They’re designed for very close crowd control like a rioters trying to breech your line. If they’re the longer rounds a lot of the agent stays in the gun and drops on your feet when you reload (which sucks).

    I’ve seen one suspect who was hit in the head with a plastic ferret round which is designed to shoot in a house. I’m pretty sure it bounced off a couple walls before striking him on the fore head. He had an impressive half moon cut and surrendered pretty quickly after being hit. He was a barricaded homicide suspect.

    If you’ve heard the term “knee knockers” think skip fire. They are designed to be shot on the concrete in front of rioters and bounce up at an angle striking the lower legs. They are 37mm dowels cut down with the edges rounded off. I’ve heard the current training is direct fire at the legs.

    We use Old Smith and Wesson smoothbore 37mm for gas rounds. 40mm rifled launchers for less lethal. I’ve shot enough 37mm into houses at 15-25 yards to know ferret rounds are decently accurate at that range. I’ve threaded window bars with them.
    Just a dog chauffeur that used to hold the dumb end of the leash.

  6. #16
    Member TGS's Avatar
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    @Coyotesfan97

    Why 37mm for gas and 40mm for other less lethal? What's the reasoning on the two different weapons systems, instead of just using 40mm for everything?
    "Are you ready? Okay. Let's roll."- Last words of Todd Beamer

  7. #17
    Site Supporter Coyotesfan97's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TGS View Post
    @Coyotesfan97

    Why 37mm for gas and 40mm for other less lethal? What's the reasoning on the two different weapons systems, instead of just using 40mm for everything?
    I haven’t ordered gas rounds in a long time but back when I did it was the expense. 37mm ferret rounds were cheap. The 37mm did everything we needed as far putting gas into houses.

    We also had 37mm Rifled Sage guns and the gas rounds for those were expensive toO.
    Just a dog chauffeur that used to hold the dumb end of the leash.

  8. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Lehr View Post
    Are we sure it was actually a projectile/greanade rather than a blast dispersion round such as this:

    Name:  Dt-6040.jpg
Views: 531
Size:  64.7 KB

    https://www.directgovsource.com/prod...0-mm-round-oc/

    That little snippet precisely illustrates one of the major problems of riot control formations - the initial officer left the 'formation' to approach the individual before spraying him with OC, the second officer, did the same before firing whatever he fired.

    Despite the 'play stupid games....' response that we might have, such actions tend to 'legitimize' acts of violence/resistance in the minds of protestors who may not have been active participants.

    Simply put, if that snippet airs on TV tonight, who are the majority of viewers going to think were the bad guys?

    Clearly, the officers involved had had their fill of the hijinks, which very well may have been a result of too much time on the riot line. Relieving personnel is one of the problems in riot control.

    Good question. Maybe someone can de-cypher something from these screenshots. The blur in the yellow circle on the first pic appears to be a solid object that bounces off the man. It looks like a lot of combustion is occurring in the second pic.

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  9. #19
    An ND?
    David S.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Lehr View Post
    Are we sure it was actually a projectile/greanade rather than a blast dispersion round such as this:

    Name:  Dt-6040.jpg
Views: 531
Size:  64.7 KB

    https://www.directgovsource.com/prod...0-mm-round-oc/

    That little snippet precisely illustrates one of the major problems of riot control formations - the initial officer left the 'formation' to approach the individual before spraying him with OC, the second officer, did the same before firing whatever he fired.

    Despite the 'play stupid games....' response that we might have, such actions tend to 'legitimize' acts of violence/resistance in the minds of protestors who may not have been active participants.

    Simply put, if that snippet airs on TV tonight, who are the majority of viewers going to think were the bad guys?

    Clearly, the officers involved had had their fill of the hijinks, which very well may have been a result of too much time on the riot line. Relieving personnel is one of the problems in riot control.
    Even a muzzle effect round like that should be shot at the feet of the person. The footage of LAPD Metro very effectively using it last week when all of those squads were destroyed is how it should be done. You don't shoot directly into someone's face at that range. I am a CA POST Chemical Agents instructor and have attended multiple manufacturers' less lethal/impact and chemical agents schools. This was dumb and possibly criminal. This makes it harder on all of us doing the job the right way.

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