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Thread: Wheelgun Challenge II

  1. #21
    Site Supporter Rex G's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rick R View Post

    I also find myself thinking more with a revolver due to the reduced capacity, it might actually lead one to seek cover faster realizing that we’re going to need to reload sooner than later.
    Cover is good, but don’t get yourself killed, trying to reach it. Consider, also, footwork, and positioning.

    If there are two bad guys, keep in mind that two points determine a line. If caught in the open, or it is otherwise applicable, move to dot their “i.” This means one of them has to shoot past his partner, to shoot at you, while you are able to shoot at both of them, at once. Notably, when one displays an awareness of moving to better tactical positioning, it can be intimidating, to them.
    Retar’d LE. Kinesthetic dufus.

    Don’t tread on volcanos!

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce Cartwright View Post
    RickR:

    Agreed to the quaint challenges. As to seeking cover, I agree. I also think that most folks who carried revolvers and fought with them tended to carry multiple guns. As I recall, Jim Cirillo of NYPD carried three guns (S&W Model 10, Colt Detective Special and a Walther PPK) as did Pat Rogers (S&W Model 10, Ruger Speed Six and an S&W Chief Special).

    I am a big fan of moon clip revolvers but until I find a way to safely carry a reload (where the moon clip is protected from being bent) I would be reluctant to do so. I was kicking some ideas around with some of the folks from Milt Sparks Holsters and we may have stumbled upon a promising idea. I am trying to convince a friend in the kydex holster business to prototype it for me. We'll see.

    "Primates molesting sports equipment" Consider that stolen.
    In truth as a simple citizen and no longer a badge carrying crime fighter I try not to get wrapped around the axle about reloads or multiple guns. In over 30 years on the job I shot zero people and hope to continue that trend into retirement.

    I haven’t managed to damage a moonclip (yet), FWIW the 10mm GP100 size clips seem more substantial than the N frame .45acp I owned for a short time. But I’m a bit of a gorilla with equipment so I’m sure I’ll figure out how to break one. I’d be interested in seeing what you cooked up with Milt Sparks & Co come to fruition.

    You and the monkeys are more than welcome.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rex G View Post
    Cover is good, but don’t get yourself killed, trying to reach it. Consider, also, footwork, and positioning.
    At the first LEO firearms instructor school I ever attended the NRA brought in Lt. Francis McGee of the NYPD and he quoted the holy scripture. Not the Good Book, but the study of OIS that the NYPD firearms training unit compiled every year. Since they fired more rounds in anger than our departments fired in training and since he was a Lieutenant we listened. The statistic that stood out was that 100% of their officers who found cover survived, even if they were wounded in the initial exchange. Even as a slick sleeved young deputy I recognized that someone issuing a “100%” figure was significant.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rex G View Post
    Some thoughts:

    1. DA trigger is “quaint?” Well, OK, I, too, thought revolvers were quaint, once upon a time. “Quaint” is the exact word I used. I started hand-gunning with a 1911, but soon had to learn DA six-gunning, to work as an LEO, and learned to like it.

    2. Plug “Fear not the DA shot” into a search engine. There is an article by some obscure person named Ernest Langdon. (Actually, he is a member of this forum, and not obscure.) This is actually about DA/SA auto-loaders, but the DA part applies to revolvers.

    3. I never stopped loving hand-held lights. Slender lights, with bright beams, and momentary-on switches, such as the Surefire LX and Aviator series, are sized just right for the size of my hands, and the length of my fingers. The 6P and 6Z were nice enough; the LX, better. It is quite possible to manipulate them with dignity.

    It is not that I am a die-hard revolver-only guy, I still love my first love, the 1911, though they are newer and better, not the cheap junk with which I started. and, I have about eight Glocks.

    Respectfully submitted.
    I’m quite happy with a decent DA trigger, carried government issued guns for years so the current internet infatuation with buying a Glock and replacing all the internals before taking it to the range is amazing to me. Probably my favorite issue gun of my career was a German made SIG P226 with their typical DA/SA setup. To a lot of the young’ns the idea of a gun with only 5 or 6 shots is archaic. I’ve known guys who EDC’d a SAA style revolver, now that’s a different grade of quaint.

    My wife claims I’m an addict when it comes to flashlights, but I’ve pretty much settled on carrying a Powertac E5 (and a tiny AAA light from County Comm) everyday. Oh, and there’s a Streamlight in the charger in my Tacoma, and a second one on the shelf by the door. AND a Surefire Z2 with a Malkoff head on the bedstand. OK, I am a flashlight-aholic.

  4. #24
    Member gato naranja's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce Cartwright View Post
    Revolvers are a hoot to shoot. There is something fun about them. Shooting them takes me back to a simpler time in my life. Americans were the good guys. Communists were the bad guys. It was okay to win. People weren’t all wrapped up in themselves and good guys carried magnum wheel guns.
    If I were still living where I could hop in the car or take a brief hike and be on land belonging to someone who knew me or my family, I would probably still be buying revolvers other than snubbies because they ARE fun. Revolvers, lever-action carbines and break-open shotguns don't require extra "stuff", usually make it through the day without malfunctions, and generally lower my blood pressure rather than raise it. Another reason why that trio are no longer being purchased by me are more-or-less addressed in the points you made about revolver deficiencies.

    Revolvers tend to make mounting a weaponlight more difficult than I am willing to put up with in my old age. My fine motor skills - heck, some of the coarse ones too - are not improving, nor are they going to, so I have learned to value the weapon-mounted light more highly than in the past. With magnum revolvers, I need all the hands I have on the gun.

    Same with night sights on some guns, or even simple options that help get a better sight picture. Mounting optics on some of my old favorites was either more than they were worth or impractical. Again, getting older can alter a previous best practice, as I am now having to reduce sight radius on iron-sighted handguns.

    Reloads... I can either be fast or effective reloading a wheelgun. Why speedloaders and I don't get along, I don't know, but we don't. I know my limitations, so if I think I may need a fast reload, I cut my losses and take a semiauto and extra mags, even though it feels like I am now toting a lot of hardware. The longer I check the police report while I am having my morning coffee, the less sanguine I am about a J-frame/SP101 and speedstrip.

    I personally have come to appreciate a nice DA trigger pull, something I did NOT appreciate in my younger days. Now that I finally have a very nice DA in an DA/SA autoloader (Beretta PX4 subcompact), I am actually considering making it DAO.

    Thus, with the exception of snubbies, I have relegated revolvers to the status of "fun guns."
    gn

    "On the internet, nobody knows if you are a dog... or even a cat."

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce Cartwright View Post
    I am a big fan of moon clip revolvers but until I find a way to safely carry a reload (where the moon clip is protected from being bent) I would be reluctant to do so.
    I've sometimes wondered if 1/2 moon clips might be an answer to this issue. I suppose it would only apply to 6-shooters, and not 5- or 7-.
    "It's surprising how often you start wondering just how featureless a desert some people's inner landscapes must be."
    -Maple Syrup Actual

  6. #26
    Site Supporter LtDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce Cartwright View Post
    Inspector71:

    I believe the number was 60. I also think that deactivated red handle revolvers were used for that purpose. By the time I came into the hiring process, the switch to semiauto duty handguns had been underway for seven or eight years and the trigger pull test was being done away with. I am trying to remember if I had to do that test. I think I did, but I just can't be certain. Of course that was a mere 24 years ago....

    Bruce
    I had to do the test and my recollection is also that 60 was the number. But that was only 35 or so years ago...
    The first indication a bad guy should have that I'm dangerous is when his
    disembodied soul is looking down at his own corpse wondering what happened.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Whitlock View Post
    I've sometimes wondered if 1/2 moon clips might be an answer to this issue. I suppose it would only apply to 6-shooters, and not 5- or 7-.
    Probably not. I'm a long time shooter of 45 ACP revolvers in various flavors. I've never, not once, bent a full moon clip. Half moons on the other hand are prone to deforming. Since I only use half moons for practice ammo not much of an issue.
    Bend it back into form or toss it (they're cheap). Bedside or in the field, though, it's full moon exclusively. I assume the structural rigidity of the full moon design accounts for the difference.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Half Moon View Post
    Probably not. I'm a long time shooter of 45 ACP revolvers in various flavors. I've never, not once, bent a full moon clip. Half moons on the other hand are prone to deforming. Since I only use half moons for practice ammo not much of an issue.
    Bend it back into form or toss it (they're cheap). Bedside or in the field, though, it's full moon exclusively. I assume the structural rigidity of the full moon design accounts for the difference.
    Thanks for that feedback.
    "It's surprising how often you start wondering just how featureless a desert some people's inner landscapes must be."
    -Maple Syrup Actual

  9. #29
    Site Supporter JRV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce Cartwright View Post
    JRV:

    I have never had access to the Jet Loaders. If I am not mistaken these are also called SL Variant loaders and are/were made in Germany. I tried to acquire a set but haven't been able to find any. The result was I decide to stick with what I could find/buy easily.

    As to carry methods I whole heartedly agree. I am working on a possible solution. I have to see if my local saddle maker can whip me up a prototype. If it works out, I will share the details with everyone here.

    Bruce
    JetLoaders are available from their only importer, Pistoleer Targets (they have an eBay store and a website, pistoleer.com). The big caveat for them is they work really well with a weakhand reload, but they aren't as simpatico to a stronghand reload as the Comp-IIIs (they lack the freespinning outer shroud present on the Comp-IIIs).

    I use a weakhand reload. Break master grip, open cylinder with right thumb and left middle finger, put right thumb on hammer, muzzle up, eject with palm of left hand, muzzle down near loaders, left hand grabs loader, middle finger indexes on two rounds, bullets go into chargeholes, right thumb presses back of loader to release rounds, left hand palm rolls cylinder shut, master grip. It runs a little under three seconds on a square range with FMJ ammo and belt pouches.

    JetLoaders rotate on release as part of the unlocking process. With a weakhand reload, they can impart some spin on the cylinder. Since they don't have the outer shroud present on the Comp-IIIs, the process can get bound up with a traditional stronghand reload (cylinder stabilized in left hand, right hand pressing loader into chargeholes).
    Well, you may be a man. You may be a leprechaun. Only one thing’s for sure… you’re in the wrong basement.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Half Moon View Post
    Probably not. I'm a long time shooter of 45 ACP revolvers in various flavors. I've never, not once, bent a full moon clip. Half moons on the other hand are prone to deforming. Since I only use half moons for practice ammo not much of an issue. Bend it back into form or toss it (they're cheap). Bedside or in the field, though, it's full moon exclusively. I assume the structural rigidity of the full moon design accounts for the difference.
    I've owned more than half a dozen 45 ACP revolvers: 1950s Model of 1955; three M25-2s; three 325s; and a very tired 1937 Brazilian (and something tells me there's another one I've forgotten over the years.) I've shot them in competition, carried one as a truck gun for several years, and had one as a bedside gun for another few years. I practiced with them all and it was all with moon clipped ammo (always thought AR brass was a bigger pain than the moon clips). In the years of doing that the only moon clip I ever had bend was when an RO stepped on one of my ejected empties (gravel doesn't give much). I pounded it flat on the back of my bench vice and it still works.

    These days I'm carrying a 386 NG that I had machined to take 7-shot Moonclips. Haven't bent one of them either.

    Del Fatti Leather makes a little pocket holder for 45 ACP and 5-shot 38/357s for those who worry about bending.

    http://www.delfatti.com/PMC-PO%20Page.html

    Dave

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