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Thread: Radios or other means to communicate with cell reception?

  1. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by ECVMatt View Post
    Good Afternoon To All,

    I have very little knowledge of radios other than the Motorolas that I use at work and some of the various handhelds of the same brand. Most of the FRS radios I have used have very poor range.

    I am going to Yellowstone is summer and would like to be able to communicate for car to car in areas of the park that do not have cell service. I was wonder what folks with more experience might recommend rather than the usual chainstore stuff.

    Thanks,

    Matt
    You might consider renting a satellite phone with text capability. Plans are becoming pretty reasonable and there are a number of cheap options.

  2. #12
    Honestly at this point I am looking for something fairly simple. I am willing to learn and test, but the other car will most likely be occupied by our wives and children. I can't see them wanting to get to involved in this project. They already think we are crazy enough as it is.

    I thought something simple like the Midland Radio 75-822 might be a good compromise.

    It seems to have decent range and is fairly simple to operate.

    I would also like to thank everyone for their time and thoughtful responses. I truly appreciate your responses.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtnbkr View Post
    That's generally a safe assumption, but once you start talking about comms much beyond visual distance, you really get into more dedicated equipment and installations.
    I was envisioning cars a couple hundred yards apart on average.
    Just without cell service to easily communicatebetween them.
    CB will do better, but is limited to 4.5w and doesn't do any better than FRS if your installation is poor (too short antennas, bad matching, poor grounding, etc).
    Yea. I put a CB in my truck for the first time last year for "just in case" and shits n giggles. Even using an SWR meter and tuneable Firestik my reception seems pretty poor. Or maybe there just isn't anyone else using it much anymore.

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtnbkr View Post
    Additionally, FRS is further handicapped by low power and tiny antennas. It's a combination that makes the service virtually useless for backcountry comms. Inside the faraday cage of a car? You would have better luck yelling out the window.
    We don't have FRS over here but we do have something similar - UHF band, tiny fixed antennas, really low power. Due to circumstances (ie. nobody else wants to put a penny into comm gear) I've had to use these handheld radios for car-to-car communications several times.

    I'd claim it's not quite as hopeless as you make it sound - you can still talk from car to car, just as long as you maintain a short distance. It's at least a tiny bit better than trying to yell over wind noise. Although if you get even a little bit separated then yeah - it quickly becomes hopeless. A maximum range of a few hundred meters from car to car is all you get, at least with the these types of radios I have used.

    Quote Originally Posted by TQP View Post
    Do they still make SSB CB rigs?
    They do for use elsewhere in the world. I should imagine they make them for the US market as well?

    Quote Originally Posted by rd62 View Post
    Yea. I put a CB in my truck for the first time last year for "just in case" and shits n giggles. Even using an SWR meter and tuneable Firestik my reception seems pretty poor. Or maybe there just isn't anyone else using it much anymore.
    What antenna length did you use?

    The problem with CB is that in order to get any sort of range, you really do need to use quite a tall antenna. (At least in my experience.)

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by That Guy View Post
    We don't have FRS over here but we do have something similar - UHF band, tiny fixed antennas, really low power. Due to circumstances (ie. nobody else wants to put a penny into comm gear) I've had to use these handheld radios for car-to-car communications several times.

    I'd claim it's not quite as hopeless as you make it sound - you can still talk from car to car, just as long as you maintain a short distance. It's at least a tiny bit better than trying to yell over wind noise. Although if you get even a little bit separated then yeah - it quickly becomes hopeless. A maximum range of a few hundred meters from car to car is all you get, at least with the these types of radios I have used.
    If you're talking car-to-car over visual range, they're not bad. However, if you put some hills between the two points or stretch that distance out to a mile or more, you're going to have problems. These radios generally have tiny antennas (usually an inch or two of coiled wire inside a plastic housing) and output .5w to 1w (assuming no losses from the tiny antenna). These radios operate on 440mhz, aka the 70cm band. 70cm refers to the wavelength of the signal. Generally you want your antenna to be 1/4 wavelength or longer. This means an antenna of about 7" long for radios in that frequency range. Are you starting to see the severe compromises here?

    As long as you stay within the design constraints they work fine. The problem is, at least here in the US, these little radios are advertised as having ranges of dozens of miles (when they first hit the market, it was 1-2 miles, but these days it's not unusual to see 20-30 miles on the package). People buy them thinking they'll communicate over distances more in line with CB or amateur radio equipment. The only way you're going to get the advertised distances is via clear line of sight with one party at elevation. It's dishonest marketing aimed at people who don't know better.

    Sorry for the lengthy response, it's a pet peeve of mine.

    Chris

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by That Guy View Post
    What antenna length did you use?

    The problem with CB is that in order to get any sort of range, you really do need to use quite a tall antenna. (At least in my experience.)
    CB is 11m, about 27mhz. This requires a 108" whip for 1/4 wave. Anything less is a compromise of one sort of another. When I had a CB on my 4x4, I used a similar antenna from Wilson. They are helical-wound fiberglass poles that have the required length of wire, but because it's wound around a pole, don't have the same radiation pattern as a proper whip. They work, but they have to be installed (free and clear of the body, such as the roof) and grounded right (coax shield to body, body to frame), else they are essentially a dummy load (non-radiator). Because CB is limited to 4.5w in the US, if your antenna install is less than ideal, you can be severely limited. A ham running a 10m (28mhz, the closest analogue to CB frequency-wise) radio can get by because they can be running a lot more power into the antenna. Sure, a lot of that power turns into heat, but enough will radiate to get down the road a bit.

    [/pedantic jackass]

    Chris

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by That Guy View Post

    What antenna length did you use?

    The problem with CB is that in order to get any sort of range, you really do need to use quite a tall antenna. (At least in my experience.)
    If I recall its a 4ft Firestik. Moubted to the middle of the front bedrail and extending a couple of feet above the cab.

    I receive but have to crank the volume all the way up to even begin to hear it.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by rd62 View Post
    If I recall its a 4ft Firestik. Moubted to the middle of the front bedrail and extending a couple of feet above the cab.
    So you have a short antenna, mounted so that half the antenna is blocked by the cab of the truck. That doesn't sound like an optimal setup and might definitely result in a short reception range.

  9. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by mtnbkr View Post
    OP mentioned mobile use, so I'd get an external antenna to mount on the car. A small mag-mount would work for temporary use.

    I'm not a fan of Baofengs for a number of technical reasons, but as long as you're aware of their limitations, they'll do ok for the OP's needs. Test them thoroughly before assuming they're good-to-go. Also, they tend to have hot receivers and poor filtering, so antennas other than the factory rubber duck may result in overload and desense. A good HT can hit way over 5 miles line-of-site. SOTA activators routinely hit 10s of miles (have seen numbers upwards of 100 miles from a summit with an HT on 144mhz).

    I'd stay away from Amazon for chinese radios in general. There are too many counterfeits there (yes, counterfeit chinese radios!). Baofengtech.com seems to be the safe bet for purchases in the US.

    If you go with Baofeng or any other radio that isn't FRS/GMRS or CB, you'll need an amateur radio license. If you go GMRS, you'll need a GMRS license (no test, just a fee). FRS and CB require no license.

    Chris
    Chris, HT is the brand name of the radio you'd recommend?

    I started with HamStudy.org the other night and already through about 20% of the questions. Purchasing a radio will motivate me to get finished.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2xAGM114 View Post
    Chris, HT is the brand name of the radio you'd recommend?

    I started with HamStudy.org the other night and already through about 20% of the questions. Purchasing a radio will motivate me to get finished.
    HT is just shorthand for handi-talky, the little handheld radios many hams own. The other main types are the base (the big desktop radios you see in movies) and mobiles, the ones that mount in a vehicle and look kind of like a CB radio.

    For a first or only HT radio, I would go with one of the less expensive or mid-tier options from Icom, Kenwood, or Yaesu. Yaesu has a line of inexpensive (less than $100) radios that are made in China and are apparently identical to Baofengs internally, but you get Yaesu's quality control and avoid the main issues with Baofeng. I've heard good things about them, but haven't actually fondled one myself. I own a Yaesu VX-7r, which was their top of the line HT when I bought it in 2006. 14 years later it is still going strong, even the original battery is in good shape. Outside Yaesu's line of Chinese sourced radios, you have their iconic FT-60r at $160 and VX-6r at $240. Either of those will serve well and last for years. Icom has a lower-end radio that does 2m (144mhz band) only called the IC-V86. It runs about $120 and is reported to be a solid device. I think Kenwood has a similar radio for about the same price.

    There is also the decision point of Digital vs Analog. Digital is the new hotness and has some interesting capabilities. Of Digital, you have three flavors: DMR (Motorola, supported by multiple 3rd parties), Fusion (Yaesu), and DStar (Icom). Which you choose depends on the infrastructure in your area, your intended use, and your budget. DMR has the most choice and some of the least expensive radio options if you go Chinese (though the Chinese DMR rigs seem to be of better quality than the Chinese analog radios). Fusion has a low-end entry point via the FT-70DR in line with the Chinese DMR rigs. DStar is more expensive, but potentially more established as it's been around for about a decade. In my area there are more DMR and Fusion repeaters than DStar, but it varies by region. I won't even get into the use of hotspots...

    Analog is the traditional choice, supported everywhere, and simplest to get started with. Cost of entry is lower too. Most digital radios I've seen also support analog operations.

    What's your budget and what do you intend to do with the radio? Are you going to stop at Technician or push on to General or even Extra?

    Chris

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