Interesting Trip To The Gun Store....LE6920's Galore...

[GyroF-16]

@tango-papa @Wayne Dobbs

As to the secondary theme this thread seems to have taken (Colt vs BCM/DD/etc), I will say that my experience after working on a fairly broad sample of AR's is that Colt has 100% hands down the most consistent parts in terms of dimensions, quality, etc. There's a fine line between "better" and better. I'll be honest, I don't really care for BCM. I don't think their guns are bad and there are certainly worse guns to be had, but I'd take a Colt over a BCM every single time. Same for DD, though DD is probably my second pick to Colt. Some of it is assembly procedures. Some of it is parts dimensions. Some of it is "this is "better"" but not quantifiable and introduces other issues.

If a gun works, it works. I don't care who's logo is on the side. That said, my role often involves working on them as well. When it works and it's easy to work on, it's usually a Colt.

Care to opine on how Geissele fits into these comparisons?
I now own one, but won’t get butt-hurt if you or others don’t think much of them...

I’m genuinely interested in what makes a “good” AR, and what characteristics make some “good” ones better than others.

[Wayne Dobbs]

Care to opine on how Geissele fits into these comparisons?
I now own one, but won’t get butt-hurt if you or others don’t think much of them...

I’m genuinely interested in what makes a “good” AR, and what characteristics make some “good” ones better than others.

Here's what makes a "good" AR in my humble opinion, based on lots of shooting, training of others, armoring and teaching armoring (the Colt course)

Adherence to the TDP in all respects (except packaging, which is included in that doc set). That means this:

1. Use of confirmed proper raw materials (steel and aluminum). Requires a metallurgy lab.
2. Dimensionally consistent across the board, confirmed by proper gauging during manufacture (hundreds of these gaugings).
3. Proper assembly, including proper fasteners, torques, staking, extractor assemblies, buffers, FSB installation, etc.
4. Proper QC/QA, including pressure testing and MPI of bolts and barrels for EVERY bolt and barrel.
5. Genuine NATO chamber (not just rollmarked as such).

Doing this right costs money, because it takes time, machines and labor. You can buy cheaper guns, but they're not as good and many of them are downright junk, assembled poorly using low priced, rejected parts. There are ~300 entities manufacturing or assembling ARs in the US. Most are junk for serious purposes. Rob_s' chart has been assailed, but he was right, which isn't a popular position in the gun argument realm.

Buy Colt, BCM or DD for the best chances of getting a trouble free gun. There are others out there that are good and I put them into the "boutique maker" box. Some (but not all) of these are Wilson Combat, Geissele, etc.

[ASH556]

Care to opine on how Geissele fits into these comparisons?
I now own one, but won’t get butt-hurt if you or others don’t think much of them...

I’m genuinely interested in what makes a “good” AR, and what characteristics make some “good” ones better than others.

Geissele's are ok. I don't mean like "just ok, but suck." I genuinely mean they're ok. They do some of that "better" stuff I was alluding to with their barrel and BCG coatings. May be ok, time will tell. My main gripes about Geissele guns are as follows:

1. They seems to think Green loc-tite to seal the gas block to the barrel is a good thing. For the guy shooting the gun, who cares. For the guy who has to work on it...it sucks and isn't required. Properly-installed taper pins seal a properly-made gas block to a properly-made barrel very well.

2. The barrel to upper receiver fit is the loosest I've ever seen to the point I would call it sloppy. Does it matter when the barrel nut is properly torqued? Probably not, but it stood out to me.

Issues I've encountered with BCM guns:
1. Barrel nut torqued so tight that I had to freeze it overnight, then heat it all while held in a Geissele Super Reaction Rod so I could apply enough torque to break it loose without snapping the index pin or damaging the upper receiver (more likely). It was brand new straight from BCM to me. There's no reason for that.
2. Their standard "m4" (not the new wider "enhanced" one) upper is the opposite of the Geissele I described above. It's made intentionally tight such that you cannot get a barrel in our out of one without heating the receiver. Again, "better" but creates extra work, more potential for things to get damaged when trying to assemble or disassemble.
3. Not an issue on a gun and most people on the internet disagreed with me when I brought this one up, but I bought 3 of their brand new carbine action springs a few years ago that were delivered new within either 1/4" or 1/2" of the minimum allowable length. Per the 23&P Technical Manual on an AR/M16 the way to determine action spring wear is to measure it. Springs shrink when their wear. Below is a pic of a spring (don't know MFR, Will Larson gave it to me at my first class because the spring in the gun measured 10-1/4 (right at the minimum end of the spec) with about 5,000-6,000 rounds on it next to the brand new Colt I replaced it with. The perceived recoil of the gun (and therefore "flatness" or minimization of returning sights to target) diminished after installing the new spring.



My main issues with DD surrounds the gas ports on their early MK18's and then that Nascar-like branding they started putting on everything. That said, I've worked on a fair number of them and never had an issue, which is why I rank them higher than BCM.

As far as what makes a "good" AR, I think Wayne did a good job outlining that. It also matters what you mean by good. I understand and fully believe that Johnny era Noveske's were great guns. I have personal hands-on experience with a few AD Noveskes that were sub par including an 18" SS barrel that wouldn't hold 1" at 25yds benched with match ammo.

I understand mistakes happen with everyone and I certainly don't tell every story I've ever been privy to about people's guns because things do happen. What we're looking for is trends and then balancing performance and cost. I've had multiple Colt barrels that shoot at or below 1MOA for 10 shot (that's important) groups at 100yds with 62gr Gold Dot (again, a real-world duty load). For what I do with an AR, that's all I need. Will someone's SS match-barreled gun shoot better? Probably. Depends on the ammo, and the optic too. But for double (or more) the price of a Colt barrel, and then a shorter service life and more sensitivity to heat (I shoot suppressed a lot), that's not a worthwhile tradeoff for me.

I don't know if I answered your questions or not, but I hope this helped some.

[DamonL]

@Wayne Dobbs @ASH556

Based on what you are saying, I think I understand that not all gun companies are capable of the quality control and ability to test and maintain MIL STD's. And that those that do have a better chance of having good parts and assembly than others. I think Colt, Daniel Defense, FNH, and maybe LMT, may be the only companies that fit in that category. Other companies may have good quality control or manufacture quality parts, but in addition to that, it is the manufacturing process to meet government contracts that improves the overall quality of the rifles that company produces.

[UNM1136]

Take your thick skin if you do a class with Elmore.

Never needed a thick skin. Did get the glare the second time I launched a detent. The first one he saw go, brought me over a second one, and when I launched that one, too, he glared at me and told me to get up and get the replacement myself, he was through delivering projectiles to me.

Lotta good info, want to take his Advanced Course with the box drill team final. My 2008 Specialized Armament Armorer T-shirt is one of my most prized posessions that I have nearly worn out. I still refer to the binder of AutoCad drawings.

Yes, VERY Colt centered, but he had really nice things to say about LaRue stuff, before you could get a factory railed Colt.

pat

[ASH556]

@Wayne Dobbs @ASH556

Based on what you are saying, I think I understand that not all gun companies are capable of the quality control and ability to test and maintain MIL STD's. And that those that do have a better chance of having good parts and assembly than others. I think Colt, Daniel Defense, FNH, and maybe LMT, may be the only companies that fit in that category. Other companies may have good quality control or manufacture quality parts, but in addition to that, it is the manufacturing process to meet government contracts that improves the overall quality of the rifles that company produces.

Ability and choice. I've not messed with the FN commercial rifles, but I've heard from people I trust to know that there's a difference between what they're supplying on military contracts and what they're building for the civilian market. Before anyone gets super pedantic, I mean things like gas ports and BCG's, not barrel length and selectors.

[OlongJohnson]

An element missing from many of these discussions is an understanding that a quality system isn't just about having the ability to make good parts. It's a total system of managing production that makes it extremely unlikely that any non-conforming parts will ever be produced. It's about monitoring outputs and identifying trouble to take corrective action before it is trouble - before the non-conforming parts get made. That's why you can't inspect quality into parts - the quality is already there or not before the inspection. Inspections are not, ideally, to screen out bad parts, but merely to double-check and confirm that the parts are good, and to provide feedback into the production process to keep it on track making good parts.

A company with ineffective quality systems can have the ability to make excellent parts, but still ship a whole bunch of bad parts without ever knowing it until they start coming back from the field.

Systems that fundamentally depend on Bubba not having an off day are not quality systems, no matter how good Bubba can be on a good day. This is why robots have mostly displaced Bubbas.

If Bubba is good enough, maybe you'll take your chances. But that Bubba will likely be expensive and have a long wait time, and you'll know his (or her) name, because there aren't very many of those Bubbas.

Excellent customer service as a front line to deal with problems that are severe enough to be detected by customers is not a quality system.

[UNM1136]

^^^^^I am not an engineer, by any stretch of the imagination, but unless I completely misread you, you summerized the converation rather well....


pat

[DamonL]

I searched factory tour and tried to find some info on assembly and quality and came up with these:

BCM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BaFOZAwspYI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_4CskJJxvY

Daniel Defense

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2hBD851a5Rc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_vFcUc_tbo

FN

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dqOJMZOoYBk

[ReverendMeat]

Ability and choice. I've not messed with the FN commercial rifles, but I've heard from people I trust to know that there's a difference between what they're supplying on military contracts and what they're building for the civilian market. Before anyone gets super pedantic, I mean things like gas ports and BCG's, not barrel length and selectors.

There was a noticeable difference in quality when the FN15 first hit and I wrote them off until I saw some a couple years later and they had definitely improved. Ended up buying their 20" upper, which became an M16A4 clone. Not 100% period correct but then it wasn't advertised as being.