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Thread: Interesting Trip To The Gun Store....LE6920's Galore...

  1. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by farscott View Post
    A couple of nits to pick. The MIL-SPEC is not the Technical Data Package. And there is no one single MIL-SPEC that describes the M4 rifle. MIL-SPECs are documents that outline requirements for parts and processes. In DoD practice, a Statement of Work (SOW) is created that describes what a product's form, fit, and function are in terms of requirements. That SOW references multiple MIL-SPECs so that each SOW does not have to recreate the wheel. MIL-SPEC documents address standards for everything from colors to performance testing to data analysis to labeling to shipping requirements. Most MIL-SPEC documents are available online at https://assist.dla.mil/online/start/

    The technical data package (TDP) is compromised of the drawings and prints for a product funded by the DoD as described in the SOW. A TDP is typically owned by the DoD as the development that led to the TDP was funded by .gov. There can be TDP for products not funded by the DoD. I am not aware of the M4 TDP's ownership status.

    The concept of the TDP is that it is comprehensive enough to allow the recreation of the product described from scratch. If Colt uses gauges to measure a part, the TDP should (but may not as TDP are always done by contractors and .gov checkers typically have no clue as to what is being checked) include the prints for the part and the gauges as well as instructions on how to use the gauges. The prints usually reference multiple MIL-SPEC documents. For example, barrel steel may be specified by MIL-SPEC, finish by another MIL-SPEC, etc.
    Nice detailed explanation, thanks for that.

  2. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by ASH556 View Post
    @tango-papa @Wayne Dobbs

    I've been through Will Larson's (RIP) class twice as well. That and a bunch of bench time is really all I have going for me. Do you find Ken's or anyone else's class to be a huge differentiation from what Will taught? One thing I did appreciate about Will's class was the willingness to discuss things outside the mil-spec. Some folks (and what I've read leads me to believe Ken's may be this way) focus on "The M16 rifle as designed by Stoner and perfected by Colt." and "if you have something else, then you should've bought a Colt instead." That doesn't help you with the reality of the commercial AR market and what you're going to encounter with public and even department guns.

    I'm certainly not opposed to taking another class, but don't want to spend the time and money just to reaffirm what I already know.

    As to the secondary theme this thread seems to have taken (Colt vs BCM/DD/etc), I will say that my experience after working on a fairly broad sample of AR's is that Colt has 100% hands down the most consistent parts in terms of dimensions, quality, etc. There's a fine line between "better" and better. I'll be honest, I don't really care for BCM. I don't think their guns are bad and there are certainly worse guns to be had, but I'd take a Colt over a BCM every single time. Same for DD, though DD is probably my second pick to Colt. Some of it is assembly procedures. Some of it is parts dimensions. Some of it is "this is "better"" but not quantifiable and introduces other issues.

    If a gun works, it works. I don't care who's logo is on the side. That said, my role often involves working on them as well. When it works and it's easy to work on, it's usually a Colt.
    My first AR armorer course was the Colt factory course, which I attended on my employers dime as the only course "approved" at the time.
    The Colt course was good, but it left me wanting more information and hands-on experience.

    Due to all the positive AAR's about the Semper Paratus Arms course, I watched his schedule and attended at the first opportunity available in my AO on my time/dime.
    It just so happened that course was run in conjunction with a Sionics build your own rifle course. I contacted Will several weeks out and inquired about the possibility of meeting with him prior to the armorer course to look at few things I had questions about. In classic Will fashion, he invited me to meet with him before the build course, which turned into a hands on tutorial and then an "audit" seat in the build course for the cost of helping him set up for the class. Will's builder course was awesome and was mixed with quite a bit of his armorer course material.

    Following that first course, I made it my mission to get Sionics on the approved list for personal purchase rifles at my agency. I had recently "made lots of friends" when I got personal purchase rifles approved by going directly to the Chief after the guys in charge of firearms had poo-poo'd it for years. Anyone who's played that game can appreciate what I dealt with before, during and after that goat rodeo. Will and Josh (CEO/owner of Sionics) provided lots of good material for my project. After nothing but push back from the "Colt or nothing" firearms guys, I ultimately went around them again. The project culminated with Josh and the Chief talking via phone and they were on the list shortly thereafter.

    The second time I attended Will's course, it was with three other guys from my agency.

    Will spoke highly of both Ken Elmore's and Gregg Sullivan's courses as well as some of the guys who teach/used to teach the Colt course, including @Wayne Dobbs.

    The few guys I know who've attended Ken Elmore's class all say the same thing: you need thick skin, it's a great course and Ken is a solid dude. One of those guys I know has had a few conversations with Ken outside of a class over the years and says he's always willing to help. I don't know @ST911, but he said the same earlier in this thread.

    I want and intend to take both Ken's and Gregg's courses to further my knowledge base on the AR rifle.

    Concur with your assessment/opinion when it comes to Colt rifles.
    Last edited by tango-papa; 06-03-2020 at 08:27 PM.

  3. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by GyroF-16 View Post
    Care to opine on how Geissele fits into these comparisons?
    I now own one, but won’t get butt-hurt if you or others don’t think much of them...

    I’m genuinely interested in what makes a “good” AR, and what characteristics make some “good” ones better than others.
    A coworker has the Super Duty LE rifle and it's an excellent rifle at an incredible price - Bill Geissele is a very generous guy making that rifle available to LE at that price.
    I had the opportunity to detail strip/inspect it and was impressed with the fit/finish.

    I havent shot it, but my co-worker, who is a very, very picky bolt action rifle guy, is quite happy with the performance/accuracy of the rifle.

    If I needed a rifle, the Geissele Super Duty LE would a top three choice for me.


    Wayne's reply to you is good stuff.
    I wish he was still teaching the Colt course.
    Last edited by tango-papa; 06-03-2020 at 09:57 PM.

  4. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by theJanitor View Post
    I really do prefer the 6920 or the LMT equivalent.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wayne Dobbs View Post
    Buy Colt, BCM or DD for the best chances of getting a trouble free gun. There are others out there that are good and I put them into the "boutique maker" box. Some (but not all) of these are Wilson Combat, Geissele, etc.
    A couple years back, I ditched most everything that wasn't 6920 based. And when I wanted a "boutique/gucci" rifle, I slapped on a SR15e3 upper on a 6920 lower. It's a great combo, that's still "factory".

  5. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by theJanitor View Post
    A couple years back, I ditched most everything that wasn't 6920 based. And when I wanted a "boutique/gucci" rifle, I slapped on a SR15e3 upper on a 6920 lower. It's a great combo, that's still "factory".

    I did the same thing.

    I've played with a LOT of ARs over the years, but when I decided to trim everything down to what I would only keep if I was going to depend on it... The Colts stayed.

    All of the 'better' ARs? Well, they aren't.

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