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Thread: Minneapolis PD Suspect Dies On Video While Handcuffed. FBI Investigating.

  1. #61
    Site Supporter Coyotesfan97's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TCB View Post
    Could be as easy as “hey boss, let me give you a hand with this guy” or “he’s not looking too good, let’s sit him up” or “remember that article about excited delirium?” or “get the fuck off him and go take a breather”. Big boy rules apply.
    Dang TGS I was just about to type something very similar.
    Just a dog chauffeur that used to hold the dumb end of the leash.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by fixer View Post
    Can someone explain why there was a need to kneel on the guy’s neck since he was already cuffed and on his stomach?
    In this case, I don’t see it. However, do not make the mistake of assuming “handcuffed” always equals “effectively restrained” Officers get head-butted, bitten, spit on and kicked by handcuffed suspects all the time. Like everything else, context dictates.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by TCB View Post
    Could be as easy as “hey boss, let me give you a hand with this guy” or “he’s not looking too good, let’s sit him up” or “remember that article about excited delirium?” or “get the fuck off him and go take a breather”. Big boy rules apply.
    It doesn’t have to be altruistic either.

    Sometimes doing this / putting the brakes on is part of taking care of your partner and yourself.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by TCB View Post
    Saying “blood choke” is like saying “shoulder thing that goes up”, it is just as uninformed and grating on the ears of people who know better...but I guess this is a general discussion area not a LE specific sun-forum. Erick and Chuck have both put down some very solid knowledge on the issues surrounding this UoF, understanding what they said would go a long way in helping make sense of this extremely tragic situation.
    OK I get it. I get why "clip" is aggravating too. My MA years were in the '90's and the LEO's in my school used that terminology as well.

    "According to Dr. Charlie, the rear naked choke is a “so-called blood choke ([one of] those that impede blood flow from the heart to the brain),” as opposed to an “asphyxia choke (those that obstruct airflow, commonly by way of windpipe compression).”

    https://breakingmuscle.com/fitness/t...get-choked-out


    or "This is a blood choke" - Rutten

    Last edited by JHC; 05-27-2020 at 04:57 AM.
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  5. #65
    Site Supporter Hambo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TCB View Post
    Could be as easy as “hey boss, let me give you a hand with this guy” or “he’s not looking too good, let’s sit him up” or “remember that article about excited delirium?” or “get the fuck off him and go take a breather”. Big boy rules apply.
    Every LEO has had an incident where another LEO has had to tell/make them chill out.

    Quote Originally Posted by JHC View Post
    OK I get it. I get why "clip" is aggravating too. My MA years were in the '90's and the LEO's in my school used that terminology as well.
    FWIW, I understood what you meant.
    "Gunfighting is a thinking man's game. So we might want to bring thinking back into it."-MDFA

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  6. #66
    Site Supporter ccmdfd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paherne View Post

    This reminds me of the Rodney King incident when I was getting started in the business. There's just no good way to explain this or justify it. The average taxpayer sees this and thinks, "The police just murdered that guy for no reason!" God Help Us All in the conflagration to come. I'm waiting for my gas mask order to go through so I can issue them to all personnel with the new helmets. I am far across the country from Minneapolis and have a feeling we are going to be sending Mobile Field Forces to nearby counties.

    If I remember correctly, and I certainly can be wrong, in the King case, news outlets only showed a small portion of the video, and of course it was the portion that looked the most damning to the officers. When the jury saw the entire video and heard further eyewitness testimony they felt the use of force was justified in that particular case.

  7. #67
    This is going to be a hot summer (and I aint talking about the heat).

    You have stuff like this...
    Corona virus putting people on edge..
    Media continuing to incite racial tension...
    Election year which always divides people even more...
    A bad economy...
    And a lot of people out of work...

    Plus I figure its about time for Iran to do something stupid again. Going to be interesting.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erick Gelhaus View Post
    Regardless of the levels of resistance and intoxication, the nearly three minutes of him being limp & non-responsive without any effort to respond to & address that is going to be very difficult to explain.

    From Cutting Edge Training, their commentary on the video:

    According to the media reports, Minneapolis police officers encountered a black male adult sitting in his car who was suspected of being under the influence of a controlled substance. Officers attempted to arrest him and he reportedly physically resisted arrest. No force tools were used before taking him to the ground and handcuffing him. For approximately 8 minutes, an officer, hand in his pant's pocket, knelt on the subject's neck while the prisoner repeatedly said he couldn't breathe. An ambulance arrived, showing officers had earlier requested EMS response. By the time the gurney arrived, the subject was unresponsive. The officer removed his knee from the subject's neck, then roughly yanked and dragged him over to be put on the gurney. The suspect died in police custody.

    Times have changed. It is past time to change with the times.

    Without seeing the autopsy or toxicology report, all we can do is speculate as to the cause of death. What we can be pretty much assured about is the man was not "suffocated" by the officer's knee on the suspect's neck. The subject was able to repeatedly speak, therefore his trachea was not occluded.

    Drugs plus physical exertion during an arrest often points to excited delirium and sudden death absent injuries pointing to a different conclusion. First described in 1849 by Dr. Luther Bell as "Bell's Mania," he observed, among other symptoms, "The course of the illness is from three to six weeks, with a fatal termination in a large percentage of cases, apparently from cardio-vascular failure due to overactivity."

    While it is not likely this or other officers "killed" this man, was there a better way to address this arrest that might have better served the public interest?

    In the 1970s and 80s, when the public's drug use changed, LE encountered sudden in-custody deaths. The deaths of suspects during forceful arrests were wrongly attributed during various phases to the carotid restraint, OC spray, TASERs, and positional asphyxia. Excited delirium, the latest understanding that began with Dr. Bell's description, is now understood by those who seek understanding of the cause of death of those who are mentally ill and/or under the influence of drugs who physically resist arrest beyond a body's physical limits and die, yet have no obvious cause of death at autopsy.

    Like that seen in the death of Eric Garner in New York, this individual complained repeatedly that he couldn't breathe. In the past, officer were trained, "If he can talk, he can breathe." THAT IS NOT TRUE.

    To breathe requires the body to perform two tasks, to breathe in and out deeply enough (inspiration and exhalation) to achieve sufficient gas exchange within the lungs to keep the body's cells supplied with oxygen to support life. Through very shallow breaths, humans can push enough air through their larynx (or voicebox) to speak without achieving even minimal gas exchange.


    CURRENT DOCTRINE: If a subject says, "I can't breathe," interpret that to mean, "I'm dying." The individual may not have the mental capacity or capability to discern they are having a heart attack or respiratory failure. This is a medical emergency. If it is safe, radio for emergency medical response. If the subject is unrestrained and still physically resisting, quickly handcuff him/her. Then roll the subject into a either seated position or a rescue position (on his side). Monitor closely and prepare to initiate CPR.

    As soon as a subject is cuffed, remove all body weight from the core of his torso and neck/head. The appearance of the Minneapolis officer who restrained the suspect in the video presented a very difficult to defend perceived of the continuing need to restrain the subject: the officer's hand was casually in his pocket for much of the video, his face was relaxed until bystanders appeared to be approaching too closely. This will be portrayed as callous, deliberate indifference to the man's life and safety. When facing a District Attorney investigator during a police-involved death investigation, and later a jury (criminal or civil), imagine the difficulty in convincing jurors that there was little effect on the outcome of the subject's death from body weight applied to their torso or neck. While that may be the fact, people want simple answers to complex problems. The public, jurors, district attorneys, US attorneys, and many police administrators often apply the belief that " the last one who touched the deceased likely killed him."

    Body weight to any area of the body during an actively resisting arrest is necessary to control the subject to handcuff him. Following handcuffing, body weight should be immediately removed from the neck, spine (from top of the spine to mid-back) area of the subject. If he
    continues struggling/kicking/biting, body weight can be applied to the periphery of his body and limbs: his upper arms, shoulders, and buttocks, lessening the appearance of interfering with his breathing. If he is slamming or grinding his head or face into the ground, protect him by cradling it in your hands.

    The suggestions in this post are often seen, correctly, as preventing the appearance of misconduct and deliberate indifference than rather preventing actual misconduct. That is very true. And also immaterial to your continuing in your career or possibly avoiding criminal indictment. Those who protest that appearances should not dictate police methods have likely not been forced to defend their actions in a politically-charged environment where incendiary comments are readily believed by many who have been persuaded by emotion rather than by fact.

    Change is tough. Change is constant. The results of failing to change is a cliche of history. Since the late 1990s, officers have been urged to put body weight on a resisting suspect only until the suspect is cuffed, and only peripherally if he remains violent or attempts to harm himself. These officers in Minneapolis, the one kneeling on the man's neck as well as the officer who failed to intervene and tell him to get off the suspect's neck, will like experience the effects of failing to change. They already are.
    Thank you for posting this. As a non-LEO type regular guy, I was unaware of "Excited Delirium."

    Something that concerns me about the article are the two contradictory statements made by the author (in bold text above). If the author is trying to dismiss the knee on the neck and insert excited delirium as the proximate cause of this man's death he's doing a lousy job.

  9. #69
    Modding this sack of shit BehindBlueI's's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crawls View Post

    Something that concerns me about the article are the two contradictory statements made by the author (in bold text above). If the author is trying to dismiss the knee on the neck and insert excited delirium as the proximate cause of this man's death he's doing a lousy job.
    It's not contradictory if the knee isn't occluding the airway.

    Excited delirium/positional asphyxiation he likely would have died if left on his stomach without anybody touching him. He might have died if he'd had no interaction with the police at all, but a seated position is safer then a prone position for someone who's body is already taxed to the point the cardio-vascular muscles are right on the ragged edge of not being able to work any longer. Simply put, the easier to breathe the better and sitting doesn't make you move your body weight up with each breath.
    Sorta around sometimes for some of your shitty mod needs.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by TCB View Post
    Could be as easy as “hey boss, let me give you a hand with this guy” or “he’s not looking too good, let’s sit him up” or “remember that article about excited delirium?” or “get the fuck off him and go take a breather”. Big boy rules apply.
    Quote Originally Posted by smells like feet View Post
    One of the other officers shoukd have gone up to him, patted him on the shoulder and quietly said something like " bro, he is done, you need to get off his neck because this looks really bad right now". Then you go into first aid/ SIDS procedure.
    Exactly. At that point it has nothing to do with rank or seniority, and everything to do with what is right, lawful and proper under the circumstances. You deal with the personal, political or employment related fallout, (if there is any), after the fact. "Do the right thing" overrides all else...imho.
    There's nothing civil about this war.

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