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Thread: Minneapolis PD Suspect Dies On Video While Handcuffed. FBI Investigating.

  1. #11
    Site Supporter Lon's Avatar
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    Words fail me. I really hope the brass dotted all their i’s and crossed their t’s during this internal.
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  2. #12
    Revolvers Revolvers 1911s Stephanie B's Avatar
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    Federal charges are on the table.
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  3. #13
    Site Supporter Erick Gelhaus's Avatar
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    Regardless of the levels of resistance and intoxication, the nearly three minutes of him being limp & non-responsive without any effort to respond to & address that is going to be very difficult to explain.

    From Cutting Edge Training, their commentary on the video:

    According to the media reports, Minneapolis police officers encountered a black male adult sitting in his car who was suspected of being under the influence of a controlled substance. Officers attempted to arrest him and he reportedly physically resisted arrest. No force tools were used before taking him to the ground and handcuffing him. For approximately 8 minutes, an officer, hand in his pant's pocket, knelt on the subject's neck while the prisoner repeatedly said he couldn't breathe. An ambulance arrived, showing officers had earlier requested EMS response. By the time the gurney arrived, the subject was unresponsive. The officer removed his knee from the subject's neck, then roughly yanked and dragged him over to be put on the gurney. The suspect died in police custody.

    Times have changed. It is past time to change with the times.

    Without seeing the autopsy or toxicology report, all we can do is speculate as to the cause of death. What we can be pretty much assured about is the man was not "suffocated" by the officer's knee on the suspect's neck. The subject was able to repeatedly speak, therefore his trachea was not occluded.

    Drugs plus physical exertion during an arrest often points to excited delirium and sudden death absent injuries pointing to a different conclusion. First described in 1849 by Dr. Luther Bell as "Bell's Mania," he observed, among other symptoms, "The course of the illness is from three to six weeks, with a fatal termination in a large percentage of cases, apparently from cardio-vascular failure due to overactivity."

    While it is not likely this or other officers "killed" this man, was there a better way to address this arrest that might have better served the public interest?

    In the 1970s and 80s, when the public's drug use changed, LE encountered sudden in-custody deaths. The deaths of suspects during forceful arrests were wrongly attributed during various phases to the carotid restraint, OC spray, TASERs, and positional asphyxia. Excited delirium, the latest understanding that began with Dr. Bell's description, is now understood by those who seek understanding of the cause of death of those who are mentally ill and/or under the influence of drugs who physically resist arrest beyond a body's physical limits and die, yet have no obvious cause of death at autopsy.

    Like that seen in the death of Eric Garner in New York, this individual complained repeatedly that he couldn't breathe. In the past, officer were trained, "If he can talk, he can breathe." THAT IS NOT TRUE.

    To breathe requires the body to perform two tasks, to breathe in and out deeply enough (inspiration and exhalation) to achieve sufficient gas exchange within the lungs to keep the body's cells supplied with oxygen to support life. Through very shallow breaths, humans can push enough air through their larynx (or voicebox) to speak without achieving even minimal gas exchange.

    CURRENT DOCTRINE: If a subject says, "I can't breathe," interpret that to mean, "I'm dying." The individual may not have the mental capacity or capability to discern they are having a heart attack or respiratory failure. This is a medical emergency. If it is safe, radio for emergency medical response. If the subject is unrestrained and still physically resisting, quickly handcuff him/her. Then roll the subject into a either seated position or a rescue position (on his side). Monitor closely and prepare to initiate CPR.

    As soon as a subject is cuffed, remove all body weight from the core of his torso and neck/head. The appearance of the Minneapolis officer who restrained the suspect in the video presented a very difficult to defend perceived of the continuing need to restrain the subject: the officer's hand was casually in his pocket for much of the video, his face was relaxed until bystanders appeared to be approaching too closely. This will be portrayed as callous, deliberate indifference to the man's life and safety. When facing a District Attorney investigator during a police-involved death investigation, and later a jury (criminal or civil), imagine the difficulty in convincing jurors that there was little effect on the outcome of the subject's death from body weight applied to their torso or neck. While that may be the fact, people want simple answers to complex problems. The public, jurors, district attorneys, US attorneys, and many police administrators often apply the belief that " the last one who touched the deceased likely killed him."

    Body weight to any area of the body during an actively resisting arrest is necessary to control the subject to handcuff him. Following handcuffing, body weight should be immediately removed from the neck, spine (from top of the spine to mid-back) area of the subject. If he
    continues struggling/kicking/biting, body weight can be applied to the periphery of his body and limbs: his upper arms, shoulders, and buttocks, lessening the appearance of interfering with his breathing. If he is slamming or grinding his head or face into the ground, protect him by cradling it in your hands.

    The suggestions in this post are often seen, correctly, as preventing the appearance of misconduct and deliberate indifference than rather preventing actual misconduct. That is very true. And also immaterial to your continuing in your career or possibly avoiding criminal indictment. Those who protest that appearances should not dictate police methods have likely not been forced to defend their actions in a politically-charged environment where incendiary comments are readily believed by many who have been persuaded by emotion rather than by fact.

    Change is tough. Change is constant. The results of failing to change is a cliche of history. Since the late 1990s, officers have been urged to put body weight on a resisting suspect only until the suspect is cuffed, and only peripherally if he remains violent or attempts to harm himself. These officers in Minneapolis, the one kneeling on the man's neck as well as the officer who failed to intervene and tell him to get off the suspect's neck, will like experience the effects of failing to change. They already are.
    Last edited by Erick Gelhaus; 05-26-2020 at 05:52 PM. Reason: Italicize the article's text

  4. #14
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    Eric, solid. I only watched a short bit of the video before coming to...oh boy, excited delirium, here we go again. A subject in cuffs who continues to fight / resist can be tough to deal with. That wasn’t a good way to do it. With a bunch of legal help, a bunch of expert witnesses these guys may have a chance of not going to jail, but their careers and lives as they know them will never recover.

  5. #15
    Site Supporter Hambo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BehindBlueI's View Post
    That's going to end up as a case study of what not to do.
    Nothing stopping supervisors from using it right now.
    "Gunfighting is a thinking man's game. So we might want to bring thinking back into it."-MDFA

    Beware of my temper, and the dog that I've found...

  6. #16
    Site Supporter Erick Gelhaus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hambo View Post
    Nothing stopping supervisors from using it right now.
    Yeah, that could be training in briefing all by itself.

  7. #17
    As a non-LEO it can be hard to take talk of excited delirium deaths seriously because it mostly seems to come up when police are doing something they probably shouldn’t be doing. It didn’t seem to prevent him from forging checks or whatever he was doing before kneeling on him.

  8. #18
    Member JHC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erick Gelhaus View Post
    Regardless of the levels of resistance and intoxication, the nearly three minutes of him being limp & non-responsive without any effort to respond to & address that is going to be very difficult to explain.

    From Cutting Edge Training, their commentary on the video:

    According to the media reports, Minneapolis police officers encountered a black male adult sitting in his car who was suspected of being under the influence of a controlled substance. Officers attempted to arrest him and he reportedly physically resisted arrest. No force tools were used before taking him to the ground and handcuffing him. For approximately 8 minutes, an officer, hand in his pant's pocket, knelt on the subject's neck while the prisoner repeatedly said he couldn't breathe. An ambulance arrived, showing officers had earlier requested EMS response. By the time the gurney arrived, the subject was unresponsive. The officer removed his knee from the subject's neck, then roughly yanked and dragged him over to be put on the gurney. The suspect died in police custody.

    Times have changed. It is past time to change with the times.

    Without seeing the autopsy or toxicology report, all we can do is speculate as to the cause of death. What we can be pretty much assured about is the man was not "suffocated" by the officer's knee on the suspect's neck. The subject was able to repeatedly speak, therefore his trachea was not occluded.

    Drugs plus physical exertion during an arrest often points to excited delirium and sudden death absent injuries pointing to a different conclusion. First described in 1849 by Dr. Luther Bell as "Bell's Mania," he observed, among other symptoms, "The course of the illness is from three to six weeks, with a fatal termination in a large percentage of cases, apparently from cardio-vascular failure due to overactivity."

    While it is not likely this or other officers "killed" this man, was there a better way to address this arrest that might have better served the public interest?

    In the 1970s and 80s, when the public's drug use changed, LE encountered sudden in-custody deaths. The deaths of suspects during forceful arrests were wrongly attributed during various phases to the carotid restraint, OC spray, TASERs, and positional asphyxia. Excited delirium, the latest understanding that began with Dr. Bell's description, is now understood by those who seek understanding of the cause of death of those who are mentally ill and/or under the influence of drugs who physically resist arrest beyond a body's physical limits and die, yet have no obvious cause of death at autopsy.

    Like that seen in the death of Eric Garner in New York, this individual complained repeatedly that he couldn't breathe. In the past, officer were trained, "If he can talk, he can breathe." THAT IS NOT TRUE.

    To breathe requires the body to perform two tasks, to breathe in and out deeply enough (inspiration and exhalation) to achieve sufficient gas exchange within the lungs to keep the body's cells supplied with oxygen to support life. Through very shallow breaths, humans can push enough air through their larynx (or voicebox) to speak without achieving even minimal gas exchange.

    CURRENT DOCTRINE: If a subject says, "I can't breathe," interpret that to mean, "I'm dying." The individual may not have the mental capacity or capability to discern they are having a heart attack or respiratory failure. This is a medical emergency. If it is safe, radio for emergency medical response. If the subject is unrestrained and still physically resisting, quickly handcuff him/her. Then roll the subject into a either seated position or a rescue position (on his side). Monitor closely and prepare to initiate CPR.

    As soon as a subject is cuffed, remove all body weight from the core of his torso and neck/head. The appearance of the Minneapolis officer who restrained the suspect in the video presented a very difficult to defend perceived of the continuing need to restrain the subject: the officer's hand was casually in his pocket for much of the video, his face was relaxed until bystanders appeared to be approaching too closely. This will be portrayed as callous, deliberate indifference to the man's life and safety. When facing a District Attorney investigator during a police-involved death investigation, and later a jury (criminal or civil), imagine the difficulty in convincing jurors that there was little effect on the outcome of the subject's death from body weight applied to their torso or neck. While that may be the fact, people want simple answers to complex problems. The public, jurors, district attorneys, US attorneys, and many police administrators often apply the belief that " the last one who touched the deceased likely killed him."

    Body weight to any area of the body during an actively resisting arrest is necessary to control the subject to handcuff him. Following handcuffing, body weight should be immediately removed from the neck, spine (from top of the spine to mid-back) area of the subject. If he
    continues struggling/kicking/biting, body weight can be applied to the periphery of his body and limbs: his upper arms, shoulders, and buttocks, lessening the appearance of interfering with his breathing. If he is slamming or grinding his head or face into the ground, protect him by cradling it in your hands.

    The suggestions in this post are often seen, correctly, as preventing the appearance of misconduct and deliberate indifference than rather preventing actual misconduct. That is very true. And also immaterial to your continuing in your career or possibly avoiding criminal indictment. Those who protest that appearances should not dictate police methods have likely not been forced to defend their actions in a politically-charged environment where incendiary comments are readily believed by many who have been persuaded by emotion rather than by fact.

    Change is tough. Change is constant. The results of failing to change is a cliche of history. Since the late 1990s, officers have been urged to put body weight on a resisting suspect only until the suspect is cuffed, and only peripherally if he remains violent or attempts to harm himself. These officers in Minneapolis, the one kneeling on the man's neck as well as the officer who failed to intervene and tell him to get off the suspect's neck, will like experience the effects of failing to change. They already are.
    Very informative for a non LE as myself. Follow up - could a blood choke for that length of time be fatal?
    “Remember, being healthy is basically just dying as slowly as possible,” Ricky Gervais

  9. #19
    Modding this sack of shit BehindBlueI's's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hambo View Post
    Nothing stopping supervisors from using it right now.
    Well, other than not having roll calls because of the COVIDs...

    I think our training and current GO's wouldn't make anything I have to say novel, though. Excited delirium has been a part of our initial and in-service training longer then I've been here. I had an in-custody death and am on tape telling the guy he can't lay on his stomach, he has to lay on his side or sit up. He later died in the jail wagon. City Legal sure was happy with me, apparently they were going to shell out some $250k until they heard the tape.
    Sorta around sometimes for some of your shitty mod needs.

  10. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by BehindBlueI's View Post
    Well, other than not having roll calls because of the COVIDs...

    I think our training and current GO's wouldn't make anything I have to say novel, though. Excited delirium has been a part of our initial and in-service training longer then I've been here. I had an in-custody death and am on tape telling the guy he can't lay on his stomach, he has to lay on his side or sit up. He later died in the jail wagon. City Legal sure was happy with me, apparently they were going to shell out some $250k until they heard the tape.
    Interesting. The only time we hear about it as non-leo is when it's combined with, say, a blood choke or something else that seems pretty causal.

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