Minneapolis PD Suspect Dies On Video While Handcuffed. FBI Investigating.

[LittleLebowski]

Footage from the police abandoning their precinct last night. Wild shit...





https://twitter.com/@twitter/status/1266227538122211331

[MickAK]

In situations like this, there are always some who want to turn to gun fire. Hot Damn, we get to shoot!

I hate to say this but given the tension in the country, and the easy availability of firearms, do you want to turn instances of outrage into deliberate armed violence? If you look at the rest of the world, that easily happens. We are not immune from such. Police would be overwhelmed by such. Now we tragically have a few active shooters without plans beyond their local event and issues. Better to burn a Target than fan the flames of an urban insurrection that is planned. I know this will rub folks the wrong way who see force at the cure for all. Lethal force need be used to prevent grievous bodily harm. Arson might be one situation if the fires do pose that threat. Looting - no. Do you want to go hand to hand with large groups looting a store?

Want to be a police officer if such occurs? It is a delicate balance between law enforcement and over use of force in a oppressive fashion, if it leads to serious armed 'resistance'.

When the looting starts, the shooting starts from the extremely stable genius, indicates a lack of knowledge on so many dimesions, it boggles the mind.

I will repeat a story from the past, that I have told before. At Kent State, college students were killed. I had friends, college students in the Ohio NG. They were worried that they would be called up. Their LT, from the boonies, was all excited because he wanted them to go shoot some commies. His 'boys' told him that if ordered to shoot at students, he might take a round. That dampened his enthusiasm.

I don't know the makeup of the MN NG - do you think they would shoot at a person with a cart full of sneakers? If they did, would that be better for the USA. You can't shoot at someone stealing sneakers.

This not a blood lust situation or one for macho posturing from those with bone spurs. I expect flames for this but I don't see troops at this stage using lethal force as anything but counterproductive.

It is tragic that the neighborhoods may not recover from this. That has happened in the past. There is no good outcomes from this. Politicians posturing are damnable scum.

I was in New Orleans right after Hurricane Katrina so I have a bit of a different viewpoint.

I think your view that since looting is merely property loss deadly force has no place in stopping it is short-sighted and a bit naive.

For one thing, as you correctly point out it can shortly lead to arson once enforcing order has been abandoned and that does threaten lives. The social contract of 'You have to pay for things before you take them' is a small one but it's the one we deal with most so it has an outsized effect on people's willingness to follow the rest of the rules. Like not gang raping your neighbors or murdering each other on a whim.

You've probably thought of that and don't think the juice is worth the squeeze. That's fair enough, but what you might not be considering is the effect taking part in this or even witnessing it has on young peoples psyche.

I've worked alongside young men that took part in the post Katrina looting and it leaves a lasting scar on their ability to 'do the right thing'. 'Get it how you live' is imprinted on their mindset the rest of their lives and becoming a functional member of a sustainable society is incredibly difficult for them. You see this in their incarceration rates and abuse of government services and programs years after the event.

To you it's a cartful of sneakers. To me it's a lost generation.

[BehindBlueI's]

I think your view that since looting is merely property loss deadly force has no place in stopping it is short-sighted and a bit naive.

How does the fact MN is, from what I've read, a "duty to retreat" state. If I'm wrong there I welcome the correction, but until then I have to believe MN law does not allow deadly force to protect property loss at a business.

[RJ]

I think what BBI was getting at with his question (as we had previously been PM'ing about it), is that the NG is not the end-all solution to riots. People keep asking, "where's the national guard?!" Well, why do you want the national guard? We don't bayonet or shoot rioters anymore.

It may have been in the past, but it isn't in the 21st century and the different values held in culture. So, their use is basically limited to what you described, with the caveat that inserting unarmed or armed NG members into a civil disturbance simply for "uniformed presence" is a bad idea and a disservice to the guardsmen unless you're actually willing to back them up when they eventually ice somebody....which, American politicians definitely do not have the stomach for.

Copy.

That's why I left the "lets have the NG shoot some of these motherfuckers" concept till last. I don't see that as realistic. I apologize for my comment, it was not intended that way.

Once it transitions away from a protest march into let's burn this shit down, it's a civil disturbance aka riot and needs to be dealt with by appropriate level of Law Enforcement. I would appreciate being educated on the concepts of what, exactly, is current national recommended guideline or policies for dealing with any kind of large crowd(s) intent on obvious violence.

I started a thread in 2016 on whether, for instance, it was lawful to run down rioters, and got some good discussion going there as well. For reference:

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....n-quot-Rioters

[MickAK]

How does the fact MN is, from what I've read, a "duty to retreat" state. If I'm wrong there I welcome the correction, but until then I have to believe MN law does not allow deadly force to protect property loss at a business.

I wouldn't know. I was referring to the police/NG using deadly force. I would hope if you're in your business and you don't go outside taking potshots at looters down the block you would still meet the standard of duty to retreat.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

I disagree that using deadly force against property crimes will somehow be beneficial to the psyche of other young men. I don't understand where that comes from. We will differ on that. Have the rates of incarceration decreased the crime in this population? You postulate shooting them will?

How to determine whom to shoot? Young man with the cart of sneaker, young teen, women?

As pointed out, there are strong legal proscriptions against using lethal force, purely for property. My favorite reference for understanding this in depth is

Killing in Self-Defence (Oxford Monographs on Criminal Law and Justice)
by Fiona Leverick | Feb 8, 2007

Expensive and legally deep into the weeds but a good read for the serious student.

Another thing, in the pictures posted by LL, I see a green laser beam. That was to use against helicopters, I think. Normally folks don't walk around with green lasers. Someone is thinking a little deeper into what actions can be taken against authorities, and perhaps the news media.

[HCountyGuy]

How does the fact MN is, from what I've read, a "duty to retreat" state. If I'm wrong there I welcome the correction, but until then I have to believe MN law does not allow deadly force to protect property loss at a business.

With all due respect I think you missed the entirety of the post for what you quoted.

I don’t think there’s advocation for stopping simple theft with a high-velocity skull evacuation via lead projectile, but what’s going on is far from simple theft. Theft is an aspect of it but as was pointed out it things quickly tend to escalate from there. One person gets it in their head to assault the owner or workers of a business and suddenly the mob decides to join in. Not to mention the privately owned businesses that get caught up in it that are effectively fucked afterwards. Some may have been hanging on by a thread before but now you add in a riot that destroys what’s left and you’ve got people who now have no way to provide for their family/ies.

Unfortunately with the public safety departments being stretched thin these people are on their own (something we preach about a lot on this board). Yeah they could abandon their businesses and hope for the best but at a certain point if that’s all they have then that’s all they have. Personally I wouldn’t be able to find fault for these business owners electing to try and stave off an angry mob from destroying their livelihood by way of gunfire.

Something about actions have consequences...

[blues]

Another thing, in the pictures posted by LL, I see a green laser beam. That was to use against helicopters, I think. Normally folks don't walk around with green lasers. Someone is thinking a little deeper into what actions can be taken against authorities, and perhaps the news media.

Apparently they were marking the position of police officers with the lasers last night...and / or trying to blind them.

[AKDoug]

I totally get that the officers involved in Floyd’s death were in the wrong. That being said, is there any actual evidence that their wrongness in this matter was specifically motivated by racial animus?

I am not talking about the theory that racism is so socially ingrained that white police officers are automatically racist on at least a subconscious level (which, as a non-white person myself, I think is absurd). I am genuinely curious, did the officers actually do or say anything to suggest that they were racists?



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Hell, the guy holding the bystanders back (I assume he was one of the fired) is of Asian descent.

[Lex Luthier]

I wouldn't know. I was referring to the police/NG using deadly force. I would hope if you're in your business and you don't go outside taking potshots at looters down the block you would still meet the standard of duty to retreat.

As I understand it(and I am no expert- it's a confusing bit of law here with different applications for a private citizen at home vs a business owner or employee)if you are in a locked building and someone comes in and either attacks you, attempts to detain you, or is otherwise signaling ill intent, such as swinging accelerants around to torch the place, you can legally engage them with deadly force. if they grab stuff and high-tail it, no, you are not legally justified in shooting them.

As this situation continues, I expect to see some cases that will provide clarity. I do not think this is over, not for a while yet.