Minneapolis PD Suspect Dies On Video While Handcuffed. FBI Investigating.

[RevolverRob]

Reddit

Reddit is only a step above the various XChan fora for general intelligence or depth of knowledge.

[Zincwarrior]

The suspect grabbed the door to try and hold it closed. One officer pulled the door while the other grabbed the suspect's wrist then did an arm-bar takedown.

Thanks!

[Dr_Thanatos]

Probably the best “real life” illustration of the rear naked choke effectiveness is this BJJ match between Marcelo Garcia vs. Vitor Ribeiro. At the 10 second mark Garcia has his arm under Ribeiro’s chin; by 20 seconds Ribeiro is unconscious and limp...

https://youtu.be/X_8O-fq-NI4

Most people can hold their breath for 1-2 minutes before losing consciousness. Ribeiro was out in 10 seconds.

The time difference needed for vascular compression to render someone unconscious vs. the time one can go without oxygen is a very important concept.

Complete compression of the vascular structures in the neck immediately stops blood flow to the brain. The only oxygen remaining is what is already in the blood that is there, and within seconds, it will be used up and the person will be unconscious. This mechanism of death is what happens in most suicidal hangings. Frequently, the individual is dead within a minute or two, and resuscitation will only work within only a few minutes. If resuscitation works, they are usually brain dead. Because they directly kill their brain.

Incomplete compression of the vascular structures, or variable compression oscillating between complete and incomplete is more common in manual strangulation, occasionally in ligature strangulation. That's why those people tend to have petechae in the sclerae/conjunctivae of the eyes, skin of the face or labial/gingival mucosae of the mouth. This pattern will take longer to result in someone's death.

Complete obstruction of the airway frequently results in injury to neck structures, unless a broad ligature, such as a forearm is used. The amount of pressure is also a significant factor. It depends on where the pressure is in relation to the larynx as well. It takes much longer to die from this mechanism, and resuscitation is frequently effective. Manual strangulation is also the usual associated mechanism of injury. For most homicides, manual strangulation involves the hands. Usually by the time manual strangulation is on the table, the perpetrator is pretty angry, and basically crushes everything within the neck.

However, manual strangulation also includes various neck holds. We have a great community of both unarmed combatants, and LE, and I'm not going to speak for them. But I have had multiple cases where a lateral vascular restraint used during a fight turned into a arm bar style chokehold. Ironically, held for a long time, the lateral vascular restraint is more dangerous, but the arm bar has more chance of causing lasting damage within the neck earlier in the engagement. Both can be effective for their desired effect, both can me fatal, both can cause lasting injury, both can have no lasting effects. There are differences in likelihood of those outcomes though.

I think we're debating semantics. Perhaps my understanding of "positional asphyxia" is incorrect. I'm thinking of it as synonymous to positional suffocation. That could be incorrect. Consequentially, (by my definition) a collapsed trachea or otherwise occluded airway is a red hearing. If the suspect died of positional asphyxia associated with excited dysphoria, it was still the officer's knee that kept that the suspect in the position where he struggled to breathe. Perhaps the suspect would still have succumbed to the excited dysphoria even if the officers had sat the suspect up. Who knows? But based off of what the Author wrote in the rest of the article, it seems like keeping the subject in the prone was the wrong course of action. I'm not judging the officers. I am not in law enforcement; was not there in the moment, and have not seen the missing segments of video. I'm just trying to understand the point the author is making.

Ok, so again, there are lots of sub-categories within asphyxia. I'm not trying to be pedantic, but words have meanings, even if few people used them that way. Mechanical asphyxia is a sub category that includes anything that puts pressure on the outside of your body to prevent you from moving air.

Sub-categories include traumatic asphyxia, where weight is on the chest sufficient to prevent effective movement of air. We see this in industrial accidents, occasional motor vehicle crashes where the individual is pinned beneath the car, etc. We also see it in babies bed-sharing with parents, but there it is referred to as overlying.

Positional asphyxia is when the decedent is confined between objects so that they cannot escape or expand the chest. It is seen in babies entrapped within poorly designed cribs, falling into spaces between mattress and sidewall. Also seen in alcoholics and the elderly falling into a narrow space between a bed and a wall. They are literally wedged in so tight they cannot breathe. A subcategory includes hyperflexion of the neck such that the airway collapses as a result, usually seen in alcoholics or drug abusers. We all know how to put our chin against our chest and make ourselves snore. Some of us prove it every night. Pushing the neck even further can cause the mid trachea to collapse. This is frequently seen in a passed out alcoholic/drug abuser who falls backward into a position against an object that as they slowly slide down, they end in a compromised position.

Dogpile/riot crush/trample deaths are when someone is compressed beneath or between multiple people and cannot escape.

As a side note, suffocation a very broad category that basically means oxygen isn't getting to the blood. There are lots of subcategories, including choking, smothering and mechanical asphyxia.

@BehindBlueI's has done a nice job of explaining why LE puts people onto their side. Excited delirium is a diagnosis that currently is not recognized by any medical groups except for forensic pathology and emergency medicine. (As far as I know, the last time I had to review the literature was about a year and a half ago.) The psychiatrists don't recognize it in it's current form, That has a lot to do with advances in medicine used to treat psychiatric disorders. There is a lot of controversy still associated with deaths involving restraints and positioning. Partially this is due to public scrutiny, and partially because (in the past) we only had eyewitness accounts, rather than video with audio. There is also a lot of literature both pro and con the diagnosis. Some still insist that there is no such diagnosis, and it is always a variant of "restraint asphyxia". Some think restraint asphyxia is non-existent. As always, the truth is probably somewhere in the middle. I have had numerous cases of excited delirium, and several cases of what was more likely asphyxia during restraint. And some that were combinations of both. They are difficult diagnoses.

None of this is particularly directed to this case. Just broadening everyone's educational horizons. We don't know what we don't know.

[Clay1]

I read / scanned the whole thread. I hope that I didn't miss it but I keep asking myself why did the officer have his hand in his pocket? Any trained reason for this? I would think that you would want your hands available.

[TGS]

Wow, just wow.

I’m all for marching in the streets, carrying signs and chants in protest of something, even if I disagree with you. But there’s no excuse for that type of violence

Even more that it was directed against a town that outright disavowed and fired the officers immediately, and made public statements that justice would be served.

The rioters had nothing to do with wanting justice or any other virtuous endeavor. They were just a bunch of angry unproductive idiots that wanted to have fun for a night, and used the decedents passing as a medium for their behavior.

And now they're probably just waking up and getting pissed at the city because they can't get their food from McD's that they burned down themselves, but will undoubtedly lay responsibility on the city for.

[Default.mp3]

I read / scanned the whole thread. I hope that I didn't miss it but I keep asking myself why did the officer have his hand in his pocket? Any trained reason for this? I would think that you would want your hands available.

He didn't. The black gloves he had on simply made it look like he did, but his hand was actually on his thigh, and the camera's poor dynamic range means that the black glove blended right into the uniform pant.

[Caballoflaco]

@Dr_Thanatos has won much internets for taking his time to drop massive science bombs in this thread.

[DDTSGM]

Officer at center of George Floyd's death had history of prior complaints

https://www.yahoo.com/news/officer-c...005400813.html

Within the story:

To be the subject of a dozen complaints over a two-decade career would appear "a little bit higher than normal," said Mylan Masson, a retired Minneapolis Park police officer and longtime police training expert for the state of Minnesota at Hennepin Technical College.

But, she added, anyone can file a complaint against an officer, whether or not it's valid, and officers might be subject to more complaints if they deal with the public often. Either way, an officer's disciplinary record will be up for scrutiny in any legal proceedings, Masson said.

An investigation including state authorities is being led by the FBI. Chauvin, 44, who is white, is being represented by lawyer Tom Kelly, who declined to comment when contacted by NBC News. Efforts to reach the other officers for comment were unsuccessful Wednesday.

I don't think that less than one a year is necessarily excessive if you consider shift worked, area worked, etc. You also need some background on what the complaints encompassed and whether they were substantiated.

Not withstanding, the fact that I think the officer didn't act appropriately in this situation, this story is symptomatic of today's journalism - let's go with the headline before we actually run down the story, you know, investigate our facts.

[TCinVA]

Even more that it was directed against a town that outright disavowed and fired the officers immediately, and made public statements that justice would be served.

The rioters had nothing to do with wanting justice or any other virtuous endeavor. They were just a bunch of angry unproductive idiots that wanted to have fun for a night, and used the decedents passing as a medium for their behavior.

And now they're probably just waking up and getting pissed at the city because they can't get their food from McD's that they burned down themselves, but will undoubtedly lay responsibility on the city for.

I wouldn't be surprised to learn that a number of the violent rioters showed up from elsewhere to cause mischief. That's a consistent feature of this sort of thing.

[ccmdfd]

Even more that it was directed against a town that outright disavowed and fired the officers immediately, and made public statements that justice would be served.

The rioters had nothing to do with wanting justice or any other virtuous endeavor. They were just a bunch of angry unproductive idiots that wanted to have fun for a night, and used the decedents passing as a medium for their behavior.

And now they're probably just waking up and getting pissed at the city because they can't get their food from McD's that they burned down themselves, but will undoubtedly lay responsibility on the city for.

Yeah, they probably would have rioted even if the city had hung all four of the cops in the downtown Square within an hour of the event.

Also can't partially help wondering if being pent up from quarantine / lockdown played any role in the rioting