Minneapolis PD Suspect Dies On Video While Handcuffed. FBI Investigating.

[BehindBlueI's]

The protestors agreed to disperse afterward, and police walked with them back downtown to their cars.

That's pretty routine in Indy to the point that who gets arrested, how long a group blocks an intersection, etc. is usually scripted ahead of time after it's negotiated out between the protest group and the city. I suspect it's part of the reason the civil unrest that hits similarly sized cities doesn't hit Indy as hard, combined with a "stand your ground" and very self-defense friendly prosecutor's office. Indy had some violence, much more then usual, but perhaps not as bad comparatively as much of the same sized population centers.

[Baldanders]

I don't see that as a difficult question in the slightest. Am I allowed to park on a public airport's runway? Am I allowed to drive on the sidewalk? No, because it's not a tyranny of the individual. Society pooled resources to build roads to drive on. I don't get to override the desire of the vast majority and the rule of law because *I* decide I should utilize the resource differently. I especially don't get to endanger people to do so.

We shut down a bunch of streets so that restaurants could have more outdoor seating and pedestrians would have a safer environment. That's society, via government and the rule of law, deciding to utilize a resource differently and adapting the law to do so. That's how a republic works vs how mob rule works.




Do you want me to be able to arrest the mayor's buddy if the mayor's buddy is a criminal? Then you want police unions.

Do you want me to get promoted by donating to the mayor/sheriff's election campaign, not arresting or ticketing people with the right credentials (which usually start with "I know..." and/or "...and donated to..."? They you don't want police unions.

Do you want officers who feel like they can do their jobs within the confines of both policy and the law and not get fired for political whim and media pressure? Then you want police unions.

Do you want officers afraid to take enforcement action that might result in media/political attention and the resulting APE* case? Then you do not want police unions.


*APE = A Political Emergency

Sounds about right.

Sometimes, other unions might provide positive feedback for the survival of the organizations that employ their members.

Boeing might have been better off with the old unionized engineers who argued for safety.....

Unions have functions other than getting higher wages and more benefits.

[RevolverRob]

I don't see that as a difficult question in the slightest. Am I allowed to park on a public airport's runway? Am I allowed to drive on the sidewalk? No, because it's not a tyranny of the individual. Society pooled resources to build roads to drive on. I don't get to override the desire of the vast majority and the rule of law because *I* decide I should utilize the resource differently. I especially don't get to endanger people to do so.

We shut down a bunch of streets so that restaurants could have more outdoor seating and pedestrians would have a safer environment. That's society, via government and the rule of law, deciding to utilize a resource differently and adapting the law to do so. That's how a republic works vs how mob rule works.

That's how our republic works. That is not what libertarianism is though. I was specifically talking about the libertarian ideals of where infringement and expression of rights overlap. That's how we get from, "I was inconvenienced" to "Mow them all down" - when folks believe that their rights supersede the rights of others, because under that libertarian ideal - each person's individual rights trump the collective of a society or culture (which is why hard libertarians are anarchists).

Importantly, this a critical role of government (on this point we definitely agree) to both mediate and mitigate these instances. However, when the government oversteps, it should be swatted down quickly. By the by - I totally recognize and agree with why permitting, routing, etc. occurs for protests and demonstrations, it's the same reason we plan parades. I also recognize that not all demonstrations/protests are equal nor planned. I believe we should not limit the peaceful demonstration of people on public property at any point day or night. If the only public property available for demonstration is a street, so be it.

That a few folks are inconvenienced by the temporary closure of a road or a detour is really of zero consequence in the broader scheme of things. We're frequently inconvenienced in this manner by traffic accidents, auto breakdowns, road construction, etc. Many of those things are unplanned, spontaneous, and while unfortunate and inconvenient mean nothing overall. Meanwhile, the message of those individuals and their actual*, constitutionally protected, rights to peaceably assemble and demonstrate certainly means more than the road is closed.

*I asterisk this because it is really important to recognize that the development and use of: streets, roadways, sidewalks, paths, bike lanes, trails, etc. While paid for by tax dollars under a collective agreement between government and taxpayers are not constitutionally protected rights. We would argue they are common rights - but they are not protected by the US Constitution (with the notable possible exception of interstate highways being a necessary and fundamental aspect to allowing engagement under the Commerce Clause).

[Casual Friday]

I've got mixed feelings on unions.

From a meta perspective, they were key to forcing businesses to correct a lot of ugliness. They also pulled a lot of folks out of poverty. From a personal perspective though, every contact I've had has felt like an exercise in obstructionism.

Probably the most memorable - we were going onsite to install equipment at a client. As me and the other tech come down the hallway their chief engineer, a short, 300 pounder, comes sprinting at us, arm outstretched, hand up, and shouting "NOOOOOoooo!". Looked like a slow mo movie scene. Now I'm thinking, is someone getting killed? What's going on? Should we seek cover? And I'm a looking around but there's no one about but me, the other tech, and a now huffing and puffing Chief Engineer.

Turns out their union contract required any outside material be carted in by union labor. By carrying our toolboxes we were creating a union beef. Chief Engineer escorted us back to the entrance so a union guy could carry our bags for us...

I've been on job sites where we had to have a union electrician come and plug our equipment into the outlets. Fully finished, covered outlets. I was on a project in a church building and you could not push the buttons on the elevator yourself. They were paying a laborer to sit on a stool and punch the buttons for you. It wasn't to keep people out of restricted areas either, there were no off limits areas, you could go to any floor you wanted.

[okie john]

Speaking of unions, Ron Chernow’s biography on Ulysses S. Grant is excellent. The audio version is 48 hours long, but totally worth it.

Brilliant. Well played, sir.


Okie John

[Baldanders]

I worked in a non-right-to-work state. Unions prospered. Once the union gets control everyone pays dues. They don't have to be union members but they pay dues. It's like a job tax. I was a union official for while and had take care of some very unpleasant business with management. I took a lot of crap from supervisors for no other reason than I was a union official. I got the idea that it was mostly a big dog contest in which I had no interest in. One of my actions got a supervisor terminated. Fortunately management tried to keep the union happy. They did that because the unions contributed heavily to the campaigns of Democrats. Democrats ran the government.

I truly saw both sides of the equation and abuses from both management and the union. I agree with right-to-work laws. If a union truly has something to offer an employee, unions will exist. If they don't they won't exist. Probably the reason unions have been on the decline in the private sector for a long time.

Under right-to-work laws, they are very close to powerless.

The teacher's union in NC is a great example. Districts feel fine in telling them to go screw when an issue comes up with a member. Why should they listen when they have no teeth?

[peterb]

Thinking back to the discussion of Agitated Delirium, I just looked it up in our state EMS protocols. These are excerpts from the section on "Restraints":
-------------------------------
4. Restrain the patient in a lateral or supine position. No devices such as backboards,
splints, or other devices may be placed on top of the patient. Never hog-tie a
patient. In order to gain control, the patient may need to be in a prone position, but
must be moved to supine or lateral position as soon as possible

Continued patient struggling against restraints may lead to hyperkalemia, rhabdomyolysis, and/or cardiac arrest, chemical restraint may be necessary to prevent continued forceful
struggling by the patient.

· Causes of combativeness may be due to comorbid medical conditions or due to hypoxia, hypoglycemia, drug and/or alcohol intoxication, drug overdose, brain trauma.

· Excited/Agitated Delirium is characterized by extreme restlessness, irritability, and/or
high fever. Patients exhibiting these signs are at high risk for sudden death

· Placing a patient in prone position creates a severe risk of airway and ventilation
compromise and death.

https://www.nh.gov/safety/divisions/...otocols7.1.pdf

[rob_s]

I've been on job sites where we had to have a union electrician come and plug our equipment into the outlets. Fully finished, covered outlets. I was on a project in a church building and you could not push the buttons on the elevator yourself. They were paying a laborer to sit on a stool and punch the buttons for you. It wasn't to keep people out of restricted areas either, there were no off limits areas, you could go to any floor you wanted.

FWIW, Florida is "right to work" and we have to have someone operate the elevator in an active construction site if it's not been certified and signed off.

Has the added benefit of there always being someone in the elevator to keep an eye on the people riding it so it doesn't get too destroyed before turnover.

[TGS]

Thinking back to the discussion of Agitated Delirium, I just looked it up in our state EMS protocols. These are excerpts from the section on "Restraints":

This is generally something that is taught to LE. Well, at least it was to me.

Still, the notion that "if they can yell, they can breath" is a bigger problem. I'm guilty of it. I was guilty of it until this incident happened. It was taught to me when I was in the military, in EMS by the paramedics and critical care nurses, as also parroted when I joined LE. I've literally said it to people when I was restraining an EDP (the difference being I used a sanctioned technique and moved them to sitting immediately after cuffing and conducting a contraband sweep).

Problem being that some doctors would rather do snide drive-by posts on a gun forum about how stupid everyone else is (and I'm sure more among their own ranks), instead of actually taking the time to educate their constituent agencies. I'm really appreciative of what I've learned here as I'll be a better LEO and medical provider for it (particularly appreciative for the more positive MD/DO types @Dr_Thanatos @Nephrology @ccmdfd) but in general for the MD/DOs on here: If you're in a position of influence with a local FD/EMS/LE agency, take the time to teach this to them. I'm sure you can get the buy-in right now.

[Casual Friday]

FWIW, Florida is "right to work" and we have to have someone operate the elevator in an active construction site if it's not been certified and signed off.

Has the added benefit of there always being someone in the elevator to keep an eye on the people riding it so it doesn't get too destroyed before turnover.

That's fairly common here under those circumstances, but this was a tenant improvement in a church that was operational on the weekends.