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Thread: Minneapolis PD Suspect Dies On Video While Handcuffed. FBI Investigating.

  1. #1231
    Member Baldanders's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TBone550 View Post
    Term limits, yes. But who to vote them in?

    As to the first part, I agree, but that would require people to turn their brains on and think for themselves, and to be willing to *change their minds* about basic beliefs. Not just other people. Us too. Compromise is a dirty word to people on both extremes, "their" extreme and "ours" as well. It's not compromise when the other person is forced to come completely to my side of the understanding. I have to move, too. My ground can't be Holy.

    An interesting side note. My originally-typed version of that third-to-last last sentence went like this:

    "It's not compromise when the other person is forced to come completely to your side of the understanding."

    That's how innate our sense is of how *other* people should change. I knew something was wrong with that sentence, but I had to read it three times before I caught it, and then I added the last two sentences.

    I consider myself a moderate; although I unfailingly vote R, I see 'my side' as the lesser of two evils as opposed to a shining beacon of truth. If I can be that much of a hypocrite, so can others.
    You strike me as being really, really honest with yourself. That's an excellent place to start if you really want to be honest with other people.

    If you want to change the world by changing opinions, you must be willing to be changed as well, if you are approaching your fellow humans with good faith. Which means you have to be ready for emotional pain.
    REPETITION CREATES BELIEF
    REPETITION BUILDS THE SEPARATE WORLDS WE LIVE AND DIE IN
    NO EXCEPTIONS

  2. #1232
    Four String Fumbler Joe in PNG's Avatar
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    In regards to race, while we've come a long, long way, we still have a long way to go.

    It's been decades since the last white riot burned down the black part of town because a black man allegedly raped a white woman. Segregation as the written rule of the land is gone. Lawyers representing black defendants are not literally being chased out of the county, and black men aren't being kept off of juries. The very idea of a black or mix race kid attending a white school brought about riots, death threats, and a lot of nastiness. Now, even in the heart of the county Willis McCall ruled with a fist of iron (and blessing of the KKK), one of the biggest old Southern Baptist churches in the area didn't blink an eye to marry a black man & a white woman, and make him a deacon- but, his dad is one of the pastors.

    But, this shows we have a long, long way to go. While a lot of the legal fight has been won, a lot of the cultural fight for hearts and minds is really just beginning. And it's not going to be easy, or quick.
    "You win 100% of the fights you avoid. If you're not there when it happens, you don't lose." - William Aprill
    "I've owned a guitar for 31 years and that sure hasn't made me a musician, let alone an expert. It's made me a guy who owns a guitar."- BBI

  3. #1233
    Quote Originally Posted by Baldanders View Post
    Do you really think every person who identifies as "left" has a goal to "take over the country?" Of course, that's how many folks see everyone on the right.

    I work from the assumption that most folks who care enough about politics to engage in public debate want their ideas implemented because they think it will result in a better world.
    I tend to agree, but there is a large subset who want their ideas implemented because, primarily, they think it will result in a better world for themselves.

  4. #1234
    Four String Fumbler Joe in PNG's Avatar
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    I've posted before that the time to worry is when a large majority of the people actually do agree on something. That often times when the Inquisition gets working and the gulags begin to fill up.

    Having a regular 51-49% split on beliefs is a good thing.
    "You win 100% of the fights you avoid. If you're not there when it happens, you don't lose." - William Aprill
    "I've owned a guitar for 31 years and that sure hasn't made me a musician, let alone an expert. It's made me a guy who owns a guitar."- BBI

  5. #1235
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe in PNG View Post
    In regards to race, while we've come a long, long way, we still have a long way to go.

    It's been decades since the last white riot burned down the black part of town because a black man allegedly raped a white woman. Segregation as the written rule of the land is gone. Lawyers representing black defendants are not literally being chased out of the county, and black men aren't being kept off of juries. The very idea of a black or mix race kid attending a white school brought about riots, death threats, and a lot of nastiness. Now, even in the heart of the county Willis McCall ruled with a fist of iron (and blessing of the KKK), one of the biggest old Southern Baptist churches in the area didn't blink an eye to marry a black man & a white woman, and make him a deacon- but, his dad is one of the pastors.

    But, this shows we have a long, long way to go. While a lot of the legal fight has been won, a lot of the cultural fight for hearts and minds is really just beginning. And it's not going to be easy, or quick.

    What current racism do we deal with?

  6. #1236
    Four String Fumbler Joe in PNG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheNewbie View Post
    What current racism do we deal with?
    If you are thinking codified, legal racism of the Jim Crow variety, it's pretty much gone.

    If you are thinking of people's attitudes towards minorities, it's still there. You may not see it, but your minority friends will. Assumptions that a position has been awarded because of affirmative action. People taking a defensive attitude when a minority walks by. Beliefs by supposed allies that minorities are barely sapient animals who need the Mighty Woke Whites to care for and guide them along and protect them. The whole "but not TOO black" trope seen in media.

    And then there are those who think that while its wrong when white people do it, it's perfectly okay if a minority does it.

    People need to see people as people, and not as parts of a tribe or color or orientation or whatever.
    "You win 100% of the fights you avoid. If you're not there when it happens, you don't lose." - William Aprill
    "I've owned a guitar for 31 years and that sure hasn't made me a musician, let alone an expert. It's made me a guy who owns a guitar."- BBI

  7. #1237
    Quote Originally Posted by TheNewbie View Post
    What current racism do we deal with?
    How easy do you think it is for a white person vs. a black person to answer "yes" to all these questions?
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I can if I wish arrange to be in the company of people of my race most of the time.

    I can avoid spending time with people whom I was trained to mistrust and who have learned to mistrust my kind or me.

    If I should need to move, I can be pretty sure of renting or purchasing housing in an area which I can afford and in which I would want to live.

    I can be pretty sure that my neighbors in such a location will be neutral or pleasant to me.

    I can go shopping alone most of the time, pretty well assured that I will not be followed or harassed.

    I can turn on the television or open to the front page of the paper and see people of my race widely represented.

    When I am told about our national heritage or about "civilization," I am shown that people of my color made it what it is.

    I can be pretty sure of having my voice heard in a group in which I am the only member of my race.

    I can go into a music shop and count on finding the music of my race represented, into a supermarket and find the staple foods which fit with my cultural traditions, into a hairdresser's shop and find someone who can cut my hair.

    Whether I use checks, credit cards or cash, I can count on my skin color not to work against the appearance of financial reliability.

    I can arrange to protect my children most of the time from people who might not like them.

    I do not have to educate my children to be aware of systemic racism for their own daily physical protection.

    I can be pretty sure that my children's teachers and employers will tolerate them if they fit school and workplace norms; my chief worries about them do not concern others' attitudes toward their race.

    I can swear, or dress in second hand clothes, or not answer letters, without having people attribute these choices to the bad morals, the poverty or the illiteracy of my race.

    I can speak in public to a powerful group without putting my race on trial.

    I can do well in a challenging situation without being called a credit to my race.

    I am never asked to speak for all the people of my racial group.

    I can criticize our government and talk about how much I fear its policies and behavior without being seen as a cultural outsider.

    I can be pretty sure that if I ask to talk to the "person in charge", I will be facing a person of my race.

    If a traffic cop pulls me over or if the IRS audits my tax return, I can be sure I haven't been singled out because of my race.

    I can go home from most meetings of organizations I belong to feeling somewhat tied in, rather than isolated, out-of-place, outnumbered, unheard, held at a distance or feared.

    My culture gives me little fear about ignoring the perspectives and powers of people of other races.

    I can worry about racism without being seen as self-interested or self-seeking.

    I can take a job with an affirmative action employer without having my co-workers on the job suspect that I got it because of my race.

    If my day, week or year is going badly, I need not ask of each negative episode or situation whether it had racial overtones.

    I can be pretty sure of finding people who would be willing to talk with me and advise me about my next steps, professionally.

    I can think over many options, social, political, imaginative or professional, without asking whether a person of my race would be accepted or allowed to do what I want to do.

    I can choose public accommodation without fearing that people of my race cannot get in or will be mistreated in the places I have chosen.

    I can be sure that if I need legal or medical help, my race will not work against me.

    I can arrange my activities so that I will never have to experience feelings of rejection owing to my race.

    If I have low credibility as a leader I can be sure that my race is not the problem.

    I can easily find academic courses and institutions which give attention only to people of my race.

    I can expect figurative language and imagery in all of the arts to testify to experiences of my race.

    I can travel alone or with my spouse without expecting embarrassment or hostility in those who deal with us.

    I have no difficulty finding neighborhoods where people approve of our household.

    My children are given texts and classes which implicitly support our kind of family unit and do not turn them against my choice of domestic partnership.

    I will feel welcomed and "normal" in the usual walks of public life, institutional and social.
    ----------------------------------------
    From an essay by Peggy McIntosh

  8. #1238
    The R in F.A.R.T RevolverRob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe in PNG View Post
    I've posted before that the time to worry is when a large majority of the people actually do agree on something. That often times when the Inquisition gets working and the gulags begin to fill up.

    Having a regular 51-49% split on beliefs is a good thing.
    This is why I am an obstructionist.

    If no one in charge gets what they want - then everyone else wins.

    I'm a strong proponent of obstructionist councils, congresses, legislatures, appellate court panels, etc. I firmly believe that a 50-50 with a swing voter or two is among the best thing for the people.

    If we couldn't eliminate the two-party system, I would strongly support the idea that POTUS and VPOTUS should be from opposite parties and half of the presidential cabinet should be made up of people from the party opposite of POTUS.

    Yea...I'm talking serious obstructionist. I want every single day in the White House to be a challenge. Just like I want every single day in Congress to be a challenge. If it gets harder to do the work, we'll get less fucking garbage out the otherside.

    Of course, I'm an asshole about these sorts of things. I would also like it if each member of Congress wore a cape or train covered with sponsor decals from lobby and special interest groups and each decal was scaled to the amount of money they received from that group. And they had to drag that motherfucker around with them everywhere they went.

  9. #1239
    banana republican blues's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe in PNG View Post
    If you are thinking codified, legal racism of the Jim Crow variety, it's pretty much gone.

    If you are thinking of people's attitudes towards minorities, it's still there. You may not see it, but your minority friends will. Assumptions that a position has been awarded because of affirmative action. People taking a defensive attitude when a minority walks by. Beliefs by supposed allies that minorities are barely sapient animals who need the Mighty Woke Whites to care for and guide them along and protect them. The whole "but not TOO black" trope seen in media.

    And then there are those who think that while its wrong when white people do it, it's perfectly okay if a minority does it.

    People need to see people as people, and not as parts of a tribe or color or orientation or whatever.
    This is my biggest issue. (Bolded section.)

    Clearly, the laws have evolved to the point of overkill to ensure that nobody is left hanging in the breeze. (Pun not intended, but actually appropriate in the circumstances, so I'll leave it.) And while I think it's a bit overkill because the laws should apply to all equally, imho, I understand the intent, if not necessarily the application at times.

    That said, since I feel so strongly about the ugliness of racism or prejudice of any stripe, it offends my sense of right and wrong to see reverse discrimination tolerated in the media and society. As if the antidote to the wrongs suffered by one group is to subject the "other" to the same prejudice.

    I find it offensive and honestly believe that it is responsible for much of the setback that, imho, grew out of the Obama years when it became routine to point fingers at, for example, white officers prior to, or even in spite of the facts. What message does that send?

    I'm fine with moving forward as a nation with one set of rules for everyone. But if we are to begin shaming an entire group of citizens based upon the color of their skin, (regardless of their actual culpability), then I think it only fair that the other side take a look in the mirror and be honest with themselves about their own failures, (even where there is no actual culpability).

    You can't have two sets of rules if you are actually trying to play the game on a level playing field.

    If people think that this perspective indicates that I am not a champion of equality for all in this country, regardless of race or ethnicity, religion, gender or sexual preference...then they know nothing about me. Nothing at all.
    There's nothing civil about this war.

    Read: Harrison Bergeron

  10. #1240
    Quote Originally Posted by TheNewbie View Post
    What current racism do we deal with?
    One more: There have been a couple of studies where identical resumes were sent to apply for jobs -- the only difference was that half had stereotypical "white-sounding' names, and the other half had "black-sounding" names. The callback rate for the "black-sounding" names was much lower.

    Stuff like that. Not obvious, maybe not even deliberate, but it's there.

    If I asked a black woman in a park to leash her dog, she probably wouldn't think to call the cops on me.....

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