Originally Posted by Poconnor
I'll wager you a PF dollar™ 😎
The lunatics are running the asylum
I didn't read the other replies; hope I'm not parroting anyone so far.
To me, essential means something I can't do without. When I'm thinking guns, I'm thinking personal protection and hunting as the essentials. And if I need to tell a person what to get, I'm thinking they either aren't into shooting very much or they're new.
Everyone, I believe, needs a handgun at minimum. If I have to tell them what gun they need, I don't feel like they're CCW material, at least not right now. So my essential handgun choice for someone I don't know would be a 4" .38 Revolver, something with adjustable sights that are easy to see. It's easy to operate, it's easy to verify loaded / unloaded, it doesn't encourage wastefulness of ammunition, recoil is low enough to encourage continued practice and bettering of oneself. It's a gateway gun, to me.
Secondly, a shotgun...something like an 870 in 20 gauge with an 18" cylinder-choked barrel would get a person by self-defense-wise. Add another barrel or two for slugs and bird-hunting and you've got a do-it-all long gun for many areas of the country with recoil that most can handle.
Thirdly, a rifle, and again thinking of a person who might not use it much, I'd honestly just go for a Marlin 336 (personally prefer it to the 94). It's not scary, it's not going to be banned anytime soon, it can be scoped but already has irons, it's pretty accurate and faster than a bolt rifle. The .30-30 or .35 Remington will keep body and soul together just fine, and like the guns above, there's no detachable magazines to lose. I'd get a full-length 20" gun for the extra weight to help tame the recoil, and a modern-enough one to have a crossbolt safety and recoil pad. If I decided I wanted a bolt rifle instead, I'd get an older one with irons but new enough to be drilled and tapped, and I'd get it in the lightest-recoiling cartridge that would handle the common game in my area. Around here, that'd be something in the .243 neighborhood.
I'd walk into enough pawn shops until I could come up with all three of these for about $1k, and I'd be equipped for self defense and whatever else I wanted or needed to do. Probably an old-fashioned answer for someone who's only 42, but these would be my choices for a random person who didn't know guns. They are also all in my safe right now, along with stuff more appropriate to a gun enthusiast.
I would start a person out with these 3, in the hopes that they would eventually move on to more modern weapons if they have the interest and the choice. If they didn't, they'd still be just fine with our fathers' and grandfathers' hardware.
All the previous are thoughtful and very good-if I had the financial wherewithal I might get all of them! I am going through something similar with my youngest daughter-21, “out on her own”, etc.
Respectfully, have you had a detailed conversation with him about what he wants to do and thinks he needs at present?
I have arranged for instruction and training for my offspring. I think that is as critical as hardware; it does sound like he has had some, but more always better.
Daughter at present has a G19 and a G43 in her possession. She has access to Colt carbine whenever she wants. She will have the carbine when we have determine how to secure it in an apartment. She will get a G44 (.22 rimfire) this summer.
A pump shotgun and whatever else can be budgeted for is in her future.
I commend you for your efforts.
Folding knife for all around knife: Spyderco Endura or Delica for starters, the BM Bugout is a nice option. If I wanted even cheaper, I really like the Kershaw made Emersons. My CQC-5K gets carried a lot, and I have many "nicer" knives.
Any decent full-size multitool, if he's good about having and keeping track of a decent medium sized tool kit, then he can go with a SAK or a smaller multitool. I really like my Gerber Dime, which is TSA compliant and easy to carry in a pocket when I'm already going to carry a knife, but won't likely need a multitool.
Fixed blade: Mora covers any reasonable outdoors use, doubles in the kitchen. I like the idea of a Clinch Pick, if he wants it. Although, if you don't like the Pikal methodology, you could actually take care of all needs with probably an ESEE Izula.
I keep asking myself "essentials" for what? For a catch-all collection? Hunting/food? Self/home defense? Practice/fun?
First thing, I'd suggest a secure storage solution: a lockable steel box (car/tool/job type box), a small safe, something.
I can't imagine an essential list not including a .22. Plinking, small game for the table, eliminating pests, etc. Handgun or rifle; your choice.
A small concealable (pocket or A/IWB) 9mm. One of the Glocks, the Sig P365, etc.
A "regular" 9mm. G19, M&P, etc.
Suggesting 9mm on both, because it's relatively cheap, easy to carry spare ammo, and effective.
A shotgun, particularly if hunting and self defense are both considered essentials. And, if both, the shotgun needs to be able to handle both.
A long centerfire, maybe. AR, bolt gun, etc. Again considering if both hunting and self defense are in play.
That's five. Bare minimum, the .22, one 9mm, and either the shotgun or rifle, depending on which better suits your situation.
For my son about to head off to college in the Fall, we have put together what I consider to be an essential group of weapons and tools. The guns will remain at home while he is in school, other than perhaps a Mossberg 500 12 gauge for the apartment. Since no one here cares about tools...
1. Glock 17, and lots of magazines. His choice over the G19. I need to add night sights, thoug he wants an RMR.
2. Remington 700 in 7mm-08. Needs a better scope, but he has taken several deer with it as is.
3. BCM AR-15, 14.5” Mid-length gas, pinned and welded to 16”. Aimpoint PRO. Lots of mags and ammo (shared in common with me)
4. Yugo NPAP AK-47. With lots of mags and ammo. His favorite rifle. Sig Romeo red dot on Ultimak rail.
5. Beretta A-400 12 gauge. He rarely shoots it, but I use it for clays.
6. Mossberg mentioned above, along with his choice of .22 rifles from the safe.
Basically he is set for life for firearm “needs,” everything else is just a want. Since he is my only son, he gets all my stuff, too. Hopefully not for a long time.
Slow Roper
Psalms 1
Let's see, if I had to start over from nothing...
1) Service handgun in 9mm
2) AR carbine
3) Deep cover handgun- should be small enough for pocket carry. Similar to #1 is a bonus, but not essential.
4) Spare- something similar to #1, that could use the same mags & holsters
A brace of Glocks (17, 19, 26) would be the classic answer.
"You win 100% of the fights you avoid. If you're not there when it happens, you don't lose." - William Aprill
"I've owned a guitar for 31 years and that sure hasn't made me a musician, let alone an expert. It's made me a guy who owns a guitar."- BBI
I'd knock like half of them off.
Unless he/she is in Memphis or some other equally shitty locale, I think carrying is a bad idea. At 21, all your friends are morons, and regardless of what training he/she has had, I think you need more time on your own working from a holster and practicing good gun handling without supervision. Do they understand how exactly a particular holster works with a particular gun design to make for safe carry?
The other thing is, those aren't roles you have listed, those are types of guns. If you were to ask me what roles I would throw up, it'd be a carry gun if you must (G26), a fundamentals gun (fullsize version of the carry gun--G19/17/34, plus a S&W Target Masterpiece for learning how to actually hit stuff), and then whatever you need for home defense or hunting or whatever.
So how about, what guns do you need to set up a young, newly-independent shooter, to dabble in just about anything?
*1 of whatever handgun they want
*a double-action target revolver (S&W Target Masterpiece, either .22LR or .38Spl)
*a single-action or DA/SA automatic (P30, fulls-zize red box Sig, any of the non-competition CZs)
*a Remington 870 (easy barrel swaps to shoot trap, ducks, turkeys, defensive or action shooting)
*Ruger American Predator in 6.5CM, Vortex Diamondback Tactical 4-16x44mm scope. Alternatively, a Savage 10FP or Remington 700 for more upgradability
I tally that at around $2000 or a hair over, plus whatever their handgun pick is. They can shoot 1000 yards, take a deer or a duck, and shoot any of the action sports outside of 3-gun. If they don't mind competing in Distinguished Revolver, they can even do bullseye (or indoor centerfire pistol). In fact, I would posit that outside of a few outside examples, they should be competitive at the club level.
I don't get why an AR is necessary. I mean, yes, maximum 'Murica and the kids like them, plus they shoot ammo that's usually cheap, but I don't see them opening quite as many doors as some other options.
I used to think this, and as a rimfire bullseye shooter, my heart bleeds not mandating a .22 semiauto on my list (or a 1911-22 conversion, or a CZ Kadet...). But a lot of shooters, particularly young ones, are paying for range time by the hour these days. Quality .22LR that can be guaranteed not to waste that time runs around $2-$2.50 a box. 9mm is only $10 or so. At $20/hr for range time--and some places are up to $25 for thirty minutes--saving money by shooting a less-enjoyable cartridge just doesn't make sense.
No, many won't be terribly entertained by the Model 14, either, unless they were raised right. But they've got a lot more pop than the .22LR, and are easily more accurate than most plinky rimfires.
Last edited by Wise_A; 05-18-2020 at 09:19 PM.
At this point, we're all parroting each other.
I like this one:
And this one:
My own list:
A 9mm service pistol. If it can be a compact that's easy to carry and have enough capacity to work like a full-size gun, that's good. The first two I'd look at would be G19 and USPc. There are up to 20-round mags that can be made to work with the latter now. As an alternative, a compact to carry and a "go to war" size version of the same gun with an identical trigger and sights to put in the higher round counts with.
Something more concealable, such as an M&P 340. I haven't messed with a G43 or G42 yet, but I probably should. LCP proved too small for my hands.
Quality 16-in middy AR with a 5.56-capable chamber. Set up.
Some kind of 12ga. It was earlier suggested that one learn to run a pump before going to a semi. I would question whether that isn't like saying one should learn to use speed loaders and get good with a revolver before going to a Glock 19. The world has changed, and it just might be OK to change with it.
We obviously like the 1301 Tac. If you were going to have just one, I wonder whether a 1301 Comp might be a better option due to the longer barrel, chokes, etc. enabling it to be used for hunting and a variety of games as an all-around. My long-term plan is to leave a Tac set up for defense so it's always ready and pick some other SA shottie for traditional shottie stuff like clay and birds. If the Renegauge proves to be good, it may be an option. Dagga Boy also has advocated just training up for defense with the duck or clays gun if you are going to do a lot of the traditional sports.
.22LR: a nice, accurate, reliable pistol that's a joy to shoot. Pretty, interesting, something a little special. I like Buck Marks. It may be nice to have a sub-caliber understudy for your 9mm, but it doesn't have to be that. That is a place where I like the P250: The .22LR trigger press and grip module options are exactly the same as the centerfire versions. Glock 44 is obviously in play here.
With the .22LR pistol in hand, a rimfire rifle. A bolt gun, an SA or a quality lever. I went with a CZ 512 rather than a 10/22 because it shares mags with my 452s. Until very recently, 5.56 ball was cheap enough to train with, but there may be benefit to a .22LR AR in the future. Just keep it clean if you go S&W to avoid function issues. Otherwise, I think of the .22LR rifle as a critter gitter, funsies plinker, newbie introducer and trainer for the hunting rifle; under a dime a round for quality stuff is a much better way to practice field positions than ~$1/rd that you get to with most quality centerfire.
Hunting rifle, if you think you're going to want to do that. The easy answer is .308 and go make meat. Depending on the size of the critters in your AO, 6.5CM is getting to be an alternative with little real difference in deployability. Might go down to .243 as was suggested earlier, but that requires a higher level of marksmanship and careful ammo selection to be effective and humane as game gets bigger. A 6.5 is quite likely the sweet spot, as it has most of the legs of a 6mm and is more forgiving on larger game.
I like Tikkas or Howas and Leupold VX3 or higher glass; other brands of glass will likely be better if you're primarily going to be trying to hit targets at distance and plan to turn knobs a lot.
Tikka makes the T1x as a rimfire version of the T3; they take the same stocks, so it should be a great understudy. I keep telling myself I'm holding out until they make the T1x in 16.5-in stainless.
A .30-30 lever gun also makes a lot of sense if you think shorter ranges and a little less less accuracy will be OK in your use; it's the cheapest centerfire rifle ammo after .223/5.56. A Marlin 39A and 336 combo would be good, as would a Winchester 94/22 and Model 94. If you're stuck in a utopia, consider adding a Model 17 or 617 pre-lock to either of these pairings for your rimfire pistol to complete the vintage look.
Last edited by OlongJohnson; 05-18-2020 at 10:29 PM.
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Not another dime.
What is essential to an enthusiast and what is essentially as a necessity is quite the gulf.
Here is what I would give out to my “American Home Guard”
1xHK VP9 w/3x magazines, Triji night sights, right or left hand kydex holster and matching double mag pouch.
1xAR15 w/10x 30-round magazines, TA31 ACOG, 2x Vickers Slings, one plate carrier with 4xMag pouches
And that would come with an annual allotment of ammo:
500x9mm FMJ
250x9mm JHP
1000x5.56 MK318 Mod 1
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If it’s good enough to repel invaders it should meet the standard of essential.
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By the by, I’ve got two soon to be brand new gun owners coming into the fold. My recommendation to them will be 2xVP9s. The wings on the back of the VP9, really dramatically improve the ability to work the slide. The ambidextrous nature of the HKs controls, the highly modifiable grip, excellent sights, and good trigger make it my go to for first time pistol buyers.
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