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Thread: Ammo reliability criteria for home defense AR

  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by GJM View Post
    Some carbines have issues with soft points.

    For a high quality carbine like you have, for utmost reliability, I would use GI 20 rounders, or GI 30 rounders with the Magpul follower, loaded down two rounds below capacity. Then I would load Just one round of PMC 55, and see if it locks back. If it does, after 10 or 20 rounds of that, I would next shoot a few magazines as fast as I could. If that is all still good, I would shoot a 20 and 30 round magazine (actually 18 and 28) of your chosen carry load, and if that is working, add some lube and call it good.

    This is just my approach, and I am sure there are other more comprehensive vetting methods.
    @GJM shoots A LOT, and one would be wise to listen and consider.
    For me, with a Colt carbine, I’ve fired two mags (one 18, one 28)of my particular choice. In my situation(suburban residential, travel to rural settings on occasion) that’s what I anticipate might probably be called for”YMMV”.
    If you have the wherewithal to run a higher round count, then by all means go for it. Personally, I believe if a brand name long arm(Colt, BCM, Daniel Defense, etc.) cannot get through two reputable mags(Magpul,etc.) in a relatively clean and lubed condition, time to seek another carbine.
    I ascribe to the download of 2 rounds because Clint Smith mentioned it years ago at a class and it hasn’t failed me yet!

  2. #22
    Modding this sack of shit BehindBlueI's's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth_Uno View Post
    If you can rip through 200-300 rounds of ball ammo then throw 2 mags of specialty ammo on top of that through a dirty, hot gun with no problems you're likely good to go. A few more after that is cheap insurance, if you are so inclined.
    That's pretty much our exact vetting process.

    As for downloading, we're required by policy to have all magazines full. This is basically to make Crime Lab's life easier, not for any tactical reason. I've had no issues with the most current generation of P-mags inserting while fully loaded. I have a few older generation P-mags that are unsat for work use as they won't seat fully loaded.
    Last edited by BehindBlueI's; 05-18-2020 at 08:29 PM. Reason: typo
    Sorta around sometimes for some of your shitty mod needs.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Darth_Uno View Post
    If you can rip through 200-300 rounds of ball ammo then throw 2 mags of specialty ammo on top of that through a dirty, hot gun with no problems you're likely good to go. A few more after that is cheap insurance, if you are so inclined.
    I don't think this regimen is necessary for testing reliability of ammo in an AR. Medusa said she has her own testing procedure, but the following is how we do things down at Wolf Hollow-

    Set the target @ 25 yards. Put a single round in a mag and fire. Check to see if the AR locks back. Check POI. Adjust sights as needed. Check lock back a few more times, maybe with two or three different mags. Move target to 50 yards if needed.

    After the lock back check, sometimes I load two rounds and fire them quickly to check feeding. Next, I load three rounds and get down to seriously zeroing the AR. Three rounds gives me a good idea where the center of POI is. Next, I fire two or three groups of five rounds to see how precision is starting to shape up.

    To test mag function, I'll fully load it and shoot it empty. If I'm shooting outdoors, I bust small rocks at random distances from real close to as far as I can safely.

    If I'm serious about checking precision, I'll move the target back to 100 yards and fire a ten round group.

    The number of rounds fired isn't carved in stone. The most important part is the lock back check and zeroing the AR.
    Last edited by MistWolf; 05-18-2020 at 08:16 PM.
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  4. #24
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    Just as a point of clarification, there are (at least) two different topics here. One, verifying that the AR itself is reliable with standard issue ball type range ammo. Two, verifying that your reliable AR is still reliable with potentially spendy primo non ball ammo or whatever other kind of ammo. I was asking about the latter, but of course they overlap a bit. As always, thank you (all) for the knowledge and experiences, which are of great benefit to me.
    Last edited by Medusa; 05-18-2020 at 09:14 PM.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by MickAK View Post
    It's one of those things that came from the experience gained in our adventures overseas. I never have an issue seating fully loaded mags in normal circumstances but if you train tired and in awkward positions you can start to see the value. Like someone already posted rifle/mag dependent but a lot more value in having 28 for sure quickly than 2 more with some potential fiddling and cussing.
    I tend to load PMags to 30 as I’ve never had an issue seating one on a closed bolt and my job requires all magazines be fully loaded. If I used GI mags for anything except range practice, I’d download them to 28 because I have had issues getting some to seat on a closed bolt when fully loaded.

    I’d be satisfied if my gun could run two-three full mags of duty/HD ammo (60-90 rounds) when dirty and warm.

    Chuck Pressburg recently did a video on whether or not to download mags. It basically came down to fully loading a mag and trying to seat it on a closed bolt. If it took more than two fingers pressing lightly to seat the mag, make sure you download that mag. ETA: looks like Wake27 posted the video.
    Last edited by WobblyPossum; 05-18-2020 at 09:16 PM.

  6. #26
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    I zero and run 50 rounds of the good stuff total. I am obsessive and compulsive so you could run less and be just fine.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nephrology View Post
    Remind me, what is the rationale behind downloading mags?
    Two rationales:

    The first is that unlike modern mags like Pmags, GI 30 round mags were designed to hold EXACTLY 30 rounds. As a result, it can be difficult to seat a fully loaded GI mag on a closed bolt.

    The second rationale is that in some institutional settings mags are not treated as the disposable items they are. Tired mag springs are more reliable downloaded by two rounds.

    People who came from places were mags were properly replaced at the first sign of issues tend to be of the “it’s a 30 round magazine, load 30 rounds and shit can the mag if it doesn’t work with 30” school.

    People who came from places where replacing mags required an act of God tend to be of the 28 round school of thought,

    Pmags, and some other modern mags has some extra flex room so they can be loaded on a closed bolt with 30 rounds.... if you don’t mess up and accidentally load 31 rounds....
    Last edited by HCM; 05-18-2020 at 09:48 PM.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Medusa View Post
    Two, verifying that your reliable AR is still reliable with potentially spendy primo non ball ammo or whatever other kind of ammo. I was asking about the latter, but of course they overlap a bit.
    I used to shoot ARs / SCARs in classes only and I would run a mag of SOST or MK 262 on each day of a class. Between that and zeroing rifles for those rounds, it gave me enough confidence. These days I would use a multi gun match for that instead. I wouldn't shoot the whole match with an expensive ammo but perhaps some select stages. I even do something like this now, reserving 75-77 gr match grade ammo for longer distances / tighter shots stages and running cheaper stuff on hoser close stages.
    Doesn't read posts longer than two paragraphs.

  9. #29
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    I grabbed 200 rds of the gold dot 75 gr SP and will test a few 30 rd mags of it when the weapon is dirty and hot. I don’t expect problems but that’s why you get empirical data. Thanks again for the suggestions.

  10. #30
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    I had some problems with my Ruger fairly early on. Bought a variety of range fodder to see what it would like the best.

    I'm not one of unload ammo for much of any reason, but it would not eat anything steel cased, which isn't a huge surprise, but Armscor and Aguila had many multiple malfunctions in only a couple hundred rounds of each. On a clean rifle, not hot and nasty or shot much. Speculation is/was that those two brass case loads just didn't have enough oomph to cycle the system. I wish I had more to run compared to Fiocchi 55 gr ball, which runs really slow compared to AE .223, M193, and M855.

    And I guess it's worth asking what the real point behind "defensive" .223 is? Mine sits with a mag of M193 in it, mostly because it does have a bit more ass behind it than the .223 loading does. Otherwise, it seems to me it'll do the job sufficiently, if necessary.

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