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Thread: Non-lead defensive ammo?

  1. #1
    Site Supporter 0ddl0t's Avatar
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    Non-lead defensive ammo?

    I'm taking advantage of the lockdown to complete hunter safety and have learned 2 things so far:

    1) The gauge numbering system is based on the number of lead balls needed to make a pound (twelve 12gauge lead balls = 1 pound, twenty 20gauge lead balls = 1 pound, etc) -- cool factoid...

    and more importantly:

    2) My concealed (or openly carried) pistol cannot be loaded with lead while hunting in my state, even if hunting with just a rifle:

    CCR T14 250.1(d)(3) Effective July 1, 2019, it shall be unlawful to use, or possess with any firearm capable of firing, any projectile(s) not certified as nonlead when taking any wildlife for any purpose in this state.

    The only non-lead pistol ammo I can find locally are the fluted bullets from novX and polycase, but neither of these ultra-light bullets shoot close to point of aim in any of my guns (and I'd rather not drift a sight for a 1 day outing). I know Barnes makes solid copper hollowpoints in normal weights, but penetration seems lacking in gel. Is there anything else out there?

  2. #2
    Site Supporter 0ddl0t's Avatar
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    ...and a few pages later I see:

    Nothing in this section is intended to prohibit the possession of concealable firearms containing lead ammunition, provided that the firearm is possessed for personal protection and is not used to take or assist in the take of wildlife

    So probably a non-issue...

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by 0ddl0t View Post
    ...and a few pages later I see:

    Nothing in this section is intended to prohibit the possession of concealable firearms containing lead ammunition, provided that the firearm is possessed for personal protection and is not used to take or assist in the take of wildlife

    So probably a non-issue...
    I interact a great deal with CDFW as part of work, mostly senior staff and permit folks and only rarely with rangers... but I've reached out a bit. What I've been told by some pretty credible folks is 1) your second post is correct, a literal interpretation of the regs does not prevent anyone from carrying lead ammo in a CCW pistol; 2) the regs do require non-lead for any taking of wildlife, hunting or otherwise; 3) in a self-defense situation, whether a rabid raccoon or an ornery black bear, it's at the discretion of the responding ranger; and 4) one of my acquaintances points out that there's a great deal of variation in how well CDFW rangers know and understand the new regs, thus the local recommendation as of a couple months ago was to carry only non-lead ammo whenever hunting or in the back country, and maybe even the box end, just in case you get stopped by a ranger who hasn't been keeping up with his reading and training.

    My backcounty solution is a HK USP 45 full size (see the lengthy USP field pistol thread started by @GJM over in the semi-auto sub-forum https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....5-field-pistol ), in my typical coast range and Klamath/Siskiyou weekend hiking spots and backcountry project sites for work, I carry Barnes non-lead (actually the Black Hills equivalent, with 185 gr Barnes HP). In areas with high bear or pig density, I formerly loaded up a mag with Underwood Xtreme Penetrator rounds and would swap that mag in at the trailhead; more recently, I've gone to handloads with 200 gr Cutting Edge solids, these are copper bullets with a huge flat meplat and excellent penetration documented in some other post here that I can't spare time to go look for right now. I'm currently loading these to +p velocities, which is probably fine for north coast California, but I have some 45 Super brass on the way and will load up some of those for any hypothetical future trips into brown bear country. Note that the full-size USP feeds the wide meplat bullets flawlessly, as always test thoroughly with whatever you carry. The USP is built solidly enough to run the higher velocity load out of the box. That's not true of most factory-stock pistols.

    Before settling on that solution, I carried a S&W 625 Mountain Gun with Barnes 45 Colt +p loads into some pretty remote places including the Kalmiopsis Wilderness and on private ranchlands near Lassics Wilderness. I'd also be fine with a 44 mag or a 357 mag with Barnes HP, Xtreme Penetrators, or Cutting Edge solids. On sites where megafauna isn't a major concern, I use my standard in town CCW with 9mm 115 gr Barnes HP or Xtreme Penetrators depending on what the high probability threat is.

    And for small varmints, CCI copper 22 LR work well. I sometimes need to cull invasive bullfrogs on project sites as a permit condition, and those rounds are quite effective through a Buckmark with a RDS.
    Last edited by Salamander; 05-17-2020 at 12:06 AM.

  4. #4
    Site Supporter 0ddl0t's Avatar
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    Thanks for your reply.

    Quote Originally Posted by Salamander View Post
    In areas with high bear or pig density, I formerly loaded up a mag with Underwood Xtreme Penetrator rounds and would swap that mag in at the trailhead; more recently, I've gone to handloads with 200 gr Cutting Edge solids, these are copper bullets with a huge flat meplat and excellent penetration documented in some other post here that I can't spare time to go look for right now. I'm currently loading these to +p velocities, which is probably fine for north coast California
    I thought about doing something similar until I got to CCR T14-353 which seems to further specify that only softpoint or expanding projectiles may be used for taking big game with a pistol or rifle:


    CCR T14-353 (Methods Authorized for Taking Big Game)

    ...

    c) Except for the provisions of the following subsections (d) through (j), big game may only be taken by rifles using centerfire cartridges with softnose or expanding projectiles; bow and arrow (see Section 354 of these regulations for archery equipment regulations); or wheellock, matchlock, flintlock or percussion type, including “in-line” muzzleloading rifles using black powder or equivalent black powder substitute, including pellets, with a single projectile loaded from the muzzle and at least .40 caliber in designation.

    ...

    e) Pistols and revolvers using centerfire cartridges with softnose or expanding projectiles may be used to take deer, bear, and wild pigs.

    f) Pistols and revolvers with minimum barrel lengths of 4 inches, using centerfire cartridges with softnose or expanding projectiles may be used to take elk and bighorn sheep.


    So now I'm thinking about trying the new Hornady Handgun Hunter line:
    Last edited by 0ddl0t; 05-17-2020 at 12:42 AM.

  5. #5
    The R in F.A.R.T RevolverRob's Avatar
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    Not sure where you’re seeing lower penetration in gel for Barnes HPs. Monolithic bullet designs tend to penetrate as well and sometimes better than bonded HPs and they defeat intermediate barriers (i.e. autoglass) without issue. With Barnes you will see the pedals fold back if they are driven too fast.

    I wouldn’t hesitate to carry a Barnes bullet in anything.

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