FBI Revolver Service Ammunition

[Wayne Dobbs]

Especially if you only have 12 rounds on your person. I never saw anyone carry more than 1 reload during my time in the bureau. I was issued a 2x2x2 pouch along with a single Safariland speed loader with belt pouch. In my field office, I carried my personal 3" Model 66 in a DeSantis speed scabbard along with a DeSantis 2x2x2 pouch in lieu of the issued Bucheimer leather.

I recall a DeSantis holster that had the 2X2X2 pouch incorporated into one unit. Do you recall that one?

[LtDave]

yes, I do:

[SCCY Marshal]

I recall a DeSantis holster that had the 2X2X2 pouch incorporated into one unit.

The Revolver Guy blog has a post about those and the current version:

https://revolverguy.com/the-desantis-fletc-2-0/

[03RN]

Cool thread

A week or 2 ago targetsports had .357 silvertips for .75 cpr

[Paul Blackburn]

how common are/were Special Agent involved shootings?

[Bruce Cartwright]

@Bruce Cartwright

Great post you've done here on Bureau ammo in the day. I was a Detective assigned to my PD's Intelligence operation and was seconded to an FBI-Dallas Organized Crime Task Force from 1987-1996. It was a great assignment full of frustration, success and great folks to work with. As a firearms guy, I paid very close attention to firearms training, tactics, support gear and ammo all the time. The PFI at Dallas was a legend by the name of Robert P. "Bob" Butler and I'd known him since 1979 from field schools he put on all over Texas. Bob was also a gifted sketch artist and his written communications were the ones collected into a binder for "First Office Agents" to use as examples of how the paperwork should be written. He was larger than life, but a great guy and very helpful to me.

Since I was assigned to the Dallas office in 1987, there was a seismic wave of work being done on ammo and firearms after the Miami Shootout that had killed two agents and wounded several more. There was literally a frantic search for answers and fixes going on and it was very interesting to see that from an inside view that wasn't public yet. Later, I got to spend an afternoon with Ed Mireles in 1994 at Metro-Dade's Officer Survival Instructor School and got lots of insight not generally published.

Ammo seemed to be the main focus and by then, the Bureau had held a conference where LE guys from all over the US had been invited to discuss their opinions and theories on ammo performance. A review of that 30 years later is useful in seeing that we didn't know what we didn't know. The 9mm load was still the WW 115 STHP that had short penetrated on Platt in Miami and the idea of a 147 grain JHP seemed odd. We were wed to velocity and expansion. The concept was found to be solid, but the execution took a long time to be accepted and be effective. I'd say it's been just since the past 10 years or so that it's become a solid performer.

The .38 Special ammo in Dallas was the Remington 158 +P LHP and it was the very best of that type of load. Allan Jones of the Dallas County Crime lab had done the first viable ammo testing outside of Fackler and Letterman Institute and he was the one who influenced Dallas PD to adopt that first concept of the load from Winchester. He told me that he found the Remington load to be the best because it was much softer lead, a larger HP cavity and it had a semi-hollow base, which caused it to upset in the cylinder throats fully, which resulted in better accuracy and no leading. The Federal and Winchester versions had a much harder alloy, causing erratic expansion and considerable forcing cone and bore lead fouling. That load worked very well both then and now. It typically penetrated all the way through a torso, stopping under the far side skin or clothing, with good .55 - .60 expansion. Many turds were flushed with that load nationwide, with Dallas area agencies validating it very frequently in OIS incidents. I recall pallets of it in the office and boxes in BuCar gloveboxes. It's my favorite .38 Special duty load to this day.

The follow on 147 +P+ loads I saw in the office were the Federal version and they seemed OK but I had no experience with them, given the known performance of the tried and true LHP load.

The .357 load was the WW 145 STHP and it was carried by quite a few agents, mostly in the 3" Model 13s, but also in lots of Model 19s. SAC approval was required to carry the load and the SACs deferred to the PFI on that decision. Some of the agents had a NIS version of the Model 19 that I lusted after: 4" satin blue, round butt with a yellow insert front and white outline rear. That load was also the Dallas PD issue .357 load (one recommended by Allan Jones from his testing) and it was an absolute asskicker in street shootings. DPD shot and killed two or three dozen per year of bad guys in the 80s and 90s and that load was an astounding performer. Since it did well on bad humans, I thought it would work well on Texas whitetails. It did, and very effectively from my 4" Model 19s.

All in all, my time working and training there was a great time and I'd never trade for it.

Wayne:

First, thanks for serving as one of the Bureau's task force officers. Officers like you were and are treasured partners with the agents. My first partner on the Job (as Pat Rogers called it) was a New Hampshire State Trooper who has since passed away. He was a mentor and dear friend. I cannot begin to count all of the lessons I learned from him. I am a better investigator and man because of his efforts. One of his shoulder patches from his Class A uniform holds a special place of honor in my home. Like Pat, I miss him terribly.

Second, I was unaware about the details of the Remington load. I ran across Remington, Federal and mostly Winchester versions of the load. None of the agents I spoke with ever complained about the power of that load. I never heard that much about either the jacketed Winchester or Federal 147 grain +P+ loads. I think by the time I came on the Job, most of the shootings were with semi-auto handguns etc.

Third, I appreciate the insights about SAC approval that you and LtDave passed on. Once again, "Learning has occurred."

Fourth, when I attended Firearms Instructor School, we were taught a block about revolvers. My class was told to draw a revolver, holster, speed loaders, and pouches from a couple of pelican cases in order to shoot a drill. As I did so, out of a pile of plain jane S&W Model 66s, I saw a blued Model 19. I grabbed it. It was one of the NIS revolvers. As imagined, it shot fabulously well. The round butt really enhanced the handling of the Model 19 for me. I coveted that revolver like no tomorrow. I almost succeeded in getting it assigned to me.

Your post is a great addition to the thread.

Bruce

[LtDave]

Those former NIS Model 19’s were often assigned to field office SWAT agents in the ‘80s before they got 9mm pistols, S&W 459s IIRC. Pretty sure Jerry Dove had a 459 at the Miami shootout.

I never had one of the NIS/FBI 4” RB 19’s, but I did have one put together with a 4” barrel on a 2.5” 19 I had. Being a former employee at a S&W repair center helped in that regard. I also had a yellow insert on mine, which I still prefer over orange. Foolishly sold it to another cop. I did keep the Farrant grips though, so there is that.

The Remington 158 LSWCHP load is also my current favorite load in 4” and longer barreled .38s. I found the Federal version really brutal in airweight J frames. Was issued and carried the Winchester version at the PD and the Bureau.

[Monti]

I'm glad to see this thread is still around, thanks Bruce Cartwright for the original post... very valuable.

[jtcarm]

I wonder where the “Chicago Load” came from? I thought the 158 LSWCHP originated with St. Louis PD.

Weren’t the +P+ rounds an LE-only offering?

I carry the Remington R38S12 as my reload, after Federal GMM WCs, which are kind of tricky for speed reloads.

There may be better rounds, but I can buy enough of the Remingtons to actually practice and test guns with them occasionally vs others that cost over $1 per round (pre-panic price, no idea what they go for now.)

[jtcarm]

Cool thread

A week or 2 ago targetsports had .357 silvertips for .75 cpr

That’s pretty good.

I hear they’re no longer loaded in nickel-plated cases.

I wish to heck Remington would bring back the 158-grain SJHP.