Page 2 of 10 FirstFirst 1234 ... LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 91

Thread: FBI Revolver Service Ammunition

  1. #11
    Site Supporter
    Join Date
    Sep 2017
    Location
    South Louisiana
    It shoots POA/POI in my 4' Model 10.
    @HCM - I guess that was a special order barrel length, eh?

    Any idea how the 147-grain Hydra-Shok +P+ did in shootings?

    They'd never make their product development investment back from it, but it would be great if Federal would bump the 147-grain 9x19 up to .357, roll a cannelure onto it and load it over enough powder in a .38 Special +P case to match 9x19 velocity in a 4" barrel. I know the process is more complicated than that, but I'm wishing, not proposing.

  2. #12
    Site Supporter
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    TEXAS !
    Quote Originally Posted by revchuck38 View Post
    @HCM - I guess that was a special order barrel length, eh?

    Any idea how the 147-grain Hydra-Shok +P+ did in shootings?

    They'd never make their product development investment back from it, but it would be great if Federal would bump the 147-grain 9x19 up to .357, roll a cannelure onto it and load it over enough powder in a .38 Special +P case to match 9x19 velocity in a 4" barrel. I know the process is more complicated than that, but I'm wishing, not proposing.
    We never had any shootings with it. the few authorized revolvers a were mostly lightweight J frames. 50 rounds of +P+ in a J frame will make you strech your +P gold dots. It's mostly sat unused but fro a few old school guys with personally owned service sized revolvers for nostalgia.

  3. #13
    I remember reading years ago about the box of .38s in the vehicle, and I believe that agent said they would often buy a bit of goodwill with officers in more rural areas with that ammo. Was there an official purpose for having the ammo in the vehicle?

  4. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by ssb View Post
    I remember reading years ago about the box of .38s in the vehicle, and I believe that agent said they would often buy a bit of goodwill with officers in more rural areas with that ammo. Was there an official purpose for having the ammo in the vehicle?
    SSB:

    My understanding that the reason for keeping a box of 38 Special Service ammo in the glove box of Bureau vehicles was to provide agents the ability to reload service revolvers in case of a fight. My understanding is that one of the agents involved in the Miami Shooting in 1986 actually did that while under fire. Until the change over by the Bureau to semi auto pistols, just about every agent carried some type of revolver that chambered either 38 Special or 357 Magnum. In that case it made sense. I did something similar and had extra magazines for whatever service pistol I was carrying at the time. I hope that clarifies things a bit.
    Bruce
    Bruce Cartwright
    Owner & chief instructor-SAC Tactical
    E-mail: "info@saconsco.com"
    Website: "https://saconsco.com"

  5. #15
    Site Supporter FrankB's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2017
    Location
    Bucks County, PA
    I’m not in law enforcement, but I carry spare boxes of 9mm and .38 in my glove box. I typically carry a spare loaded mag of 9mm in the glove box, along with two tourniquets. A few more boxes of ammo are kept in my trunk range bag. You never know....

  6. #16
    Site Supporter
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    TEXAS !
    Quote Originally Posted by FrankB View Post
    I’m not in law enforcement, but I carry spare boxes of 9mm and .38 in my glove box. I typically carry a spare loaded mag of 9mm in the glove box, along with two tourniquets. A few more boxes of ammo are kept in my trunk range bag. You never know....
    Boxes of ammo make a lot more sense in revolvers, especially pre-speed loaders.

    I keep an extra box of .38 duty ammo for my BUG but everything else is in loaded mags. I have IFAKs in all my vehicles. I’ve used the IFAKS more than the mags.

    In my work vehicle I keep an IFAK attached to the back of the headrest of the front passenger side seat with either a Velcro wrap or an extra Safariland thigh rig strap. I can reach it from the driver’s seat if needed and I can quickly grab it and go if needed.

  7. #17
    Site Supporter FrankB's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2017
    Location
    Bucks County, PA
    Quote Originally Posted by HCM View Post
    Boxes of ammo make a lot more sense in revolvers, especially pre-speed loaders.

    I keep an extra box of .38 duty ammo for my BUG but everything else is in loaded mags. I have IFAKs in all my vehicles. I’ve used the IFAKS more than the mags.
    I have a well stocked trauma kit in my trunk, along with Gatorade and some simple snacks. While I’ve never fired a shot in anger, the first aid does come in handy. Back in our sailing days, we had a small ER onboard our sailboat!

  8. #18
    Very Pro Dentist Chuck Haggard's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Down the road from Quantrill's big raid.
    If that was the same 147gr Hydrashock bullet that Federal used in their 9mm load then it would not have done well at all. We had horrible luck with that ammo at my old job.
    I am the owner of Agile/Training and Consulting
    www.agiletactical.com

  9. #19
    Site Supporter
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Allen, TX
    @Bruce Cartwright

    Great post you've done here on Bureau ammo in the day. I was a Detective assigned to my PD's Intelligence operation and was seconded to an FBI-Dallas Organized Crime Task Force from 1987-1996. It was a great assignment full of frustration, success and great folks to work with. As a firearms guy, I paid very close attention to firearms training, tactics, support gear and ammo all the time. The PFI at Dallas was a legend by the name of Robert P. "Bob" Butler and I'd known him since 1979 from field schools he put on all over Texas. Bob was also a gifted sketch artist and his written communications were the ones collected into a binder for "First Office Agents" to use as examples of how the paperwork should be written. He was larger than life, but a great guy and very helpful to me.

    Since I was assigned to the Dallas office in 1987, there was a seismic wave of work being done on ammo and firearms after the Miami Shootout that had killed two agents and wounded several more. There was literally a frantic search for answers and fixes going on and it was very interesting to see that from an inside view that wasn't public yet. Later, I got to spend an afternoon with Ed Mireles in 1994 at Metro-Dade's Officer Survival Instructor School and got lots of insight not generally published.

    Ammo seemed to be the main focus and by then, the Bureau had held a conference where LE guys from all over the US had been invited to discuss their opinions and theories on ammo performance. A review of that 30 years later is useful in seeing that we didn't know what we didn't know. The 9mm load was still the WW 115 STHP that had short penetrated on Platt in Miami and the idea of a 147 grain JHP seemed odd. We were wed to velocity and expansion. The concept was found to be solid, but the execution took a long time to be accepted and be effective. I'd say it's been just since the past 10 years or so that it's become a solid performer.

    The .38 Special ammo in Dallas was the Remington 158 +P LHP and it was the very best of that type of load. Allan Jones of the Dallas County Crime lab had done the first viable ammo testing outside of Fackler and Letterman Institute and he was the one who influenced Dallas PD to adopt that first concept of the load from Winchester. He told me that he found the Remington load to be the best because it was much softer lead, a larger HP cavity and it had a semi-hollow base, which caused it to upset in the cylinder throats fully, which resulted in better accuracy and no leading. The Federal and Winchester versions had a much harder alloy, causing erratic expansion and considerable forcing cone and bore lead fouling. That load worked very well both then and now. It typically penetrated all the way through a torso, stopping under the far side skin or clothing, with good .55 - .60 expansion. Many turds were flushed with that load nationwide, with Dallas area agencies validating it very frequently in OIS incidents. I recall pallets of it in the office and boxes in BuCar gloveboxes. It's my favorite .38 Special duty load to this day.

    The follow on 147 +P+ loads I saw in the office were the Federal version and they seemed OK but I had no experience with them, given the known performance of the tried and true LHP load.

    The .357 load was the WW 145 STHP and it was carried by quite a few agents, mostly in the 3" Model 13s, but also in lots of Model 19s. SAC approval was required to carry the load and the SACs deferred to the PFI on that decision. Some of the agents had a NIS version of the Model 19 that I lusted after: 4" satin blue, round butt with a yellow insert front and white outline rear. That load was also the Dallas PD issue .357 load (one recommended by Allan Jones from his testing) and it was an absolute asskicker in street shootings. DPD shot and killed two or three dozen per year of bad guys in the 80s and 90s and that load was an astounding performer. Since it did well on bad humans, I thought it would work well on Texas whitetails. It did, and very effectively from my 4" Model 19s.

    All in all, my time working and training there was a great time and I'd never trade for it.
    Regional Government Sales Manager for Aimpoint, Inc. USA
    Co-owner Hardwired Tactical Shooting (HiTS)

  10. #20
    Site Supporter LtDave's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Central AZ
    Quote Originally Posted by HCM View Post
    Boxes of ammo make a lot more sense in revolvers, especially pre-speed loaders.
    Especially if you only have 12 rounds on your person. I never saw anyone carry more than 1 reload during my time in the bureau. I was issued a 2x2x2 pouch along with a single Safariland speed loader with belt pouch. In my field office, I carried my personal 3" Model 66 in a DeSantis speed scabbard along with a DeSantis 2x2x2 pouch in lieu of the issued Bucheimer leather.
    The first indication a bad guy should have that I'm dangerous is when his
    disembodied soul is looking down at his own corpse wondering what happened.

User Tag List

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •