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Thread: FBI Revolver Service Ammunition

  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by jnc36rcpd View Post
    I agree completely about the Metro-Dade Police Officer Survival Instructor course, Wayne. It set the tone for much of the training I provided at my former department.

    As Wayne mentioned, Ed Mireles provided some of the training. Of course, he was peppered with questions from us then-young hot-shot instructors about why his team did this or didn't do that. One answer stuck with me when he said, "We never expected to find these guys." I've always believed and trained that every shift, every call for service, every stop, we need to expect to find these guys.

    I'll also remark that I suspect in Gordon McNeil had been armed with a 659 as Grogan and Dove were, I think that fight would have been over when he engaged the suspects car-to-car after the stop.
    Tons of recollected truth there. The same thing stuck with me over the years since, that they didn't expect to find Platt and Matix that day. Mireles further elaborated that they went out to show that they were doing something on the case. Inadequate mental conditioning has likely killed more of us as cops than anything else.
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  2. #82
    I remember taking a class from Tom Givens about six years ago. He gave a lecture about the Miami firefight and the lesson he shared that stuck with me the most was something to the effect of “If you’re going out looking for trouble, you should be prepared to find it.” I don’t think I’ll ever forget it.
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  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by WobblyPossum View Post
    I remember taking a class from Tom Givens about six years ago. He gave a lecture about the Miami firefight and the lesson he shared that stuck with me the most was something to the effect of “If you’re going out looking for trouble, you should be prepared to find it.” I don’t think I’ll ever forget it.
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  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wayne Dobbs View Post
    Tons of recollected truth there. The same thing stuck with me over the years since, that they didn't expect to find Platt and Matix that day. Mireles further elaborated that they went out to show that they were doing something on the case. Inadequate mental conditioning has likely killed more of us as cops than anything else.
    IIRC from his book, Mireles said they were surprised Platt & Matix were still using the same stolen car with the original plates.

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wayne Dobbs View Post
    Tons of recollected truth there. The same thing stuck with me over the years since, that they didn't expect to find Platt and Matix that day. Mireles further elaborated that they went out to show that they were doing something on the case. Inadequate mental conditioning has likely killed more of us as cops than anything else.
    Wayne, did Mireles say what he/they would've done different if they had taken it seriously from the get-go?

    The mental conditioning aspect makes sense, but it seems to me that once they actually found them there was ample opportunity for their mindset to shift from "Eh let's get this over with so we can make a diary entry and get the boss off our backs..." to, "This is happening. Let's do this." They initiated the stop knowing full well who the subjects were and the dangers they presented, quite a bit different than going into something with a blaise attitude and being at an initiative deficit when someone else decides to make it a bad day.

    If they had the mindset of doing heavy work before they left the office, did he say they would've brought extra guys? Extra long guns? Specialized units?

    Thanks for any insight on that piece.
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  6. #86
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    Not Wayne, but I don't think the bad guys had ever confronted law enforcement. They were certainly dangerous people, but I believe the agents rolled out as many people do. They considered themselves ready for a confrontation, but weren't really prepared for it.

    From my understanding, there was some confusion among the agents about how to conduct a "felony car stop" as SA Grogan ordered over the radio. As a much, much younger officer at the time, I would not have expected ramming a suspect vehicle onto a different road as the initiation of a felony car stop even in that day.

    As I believe an agent remarked, the Bureau had an eight to two numeric advantage. Wouldn't most of us have initiated a stop?

    I think the issue is the agents thought that they might encounter the bad guys, but it didn't seem that likely. If they knew they would find them, they would have brought more to the table.

  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by TGS View Post
    If they had the mindset of doing heavy work before they left the office, did he say they would've brought extra guys? Extra long guns? Specialized units?
    Quote Originally Posted by jnc36rcpd
    From my understanding, there was some confusion among the agents about how to conduct a "felony car stop" as SA Grogan ordered over the radio. As a much, much younger officer at the time, I would not have expected ramming a suspect vehicle onto a different road as the initiation of a felony car stop even in that day.

    As I believe an agent remarked, the Bureau had an eight to two numeric advantage. Wouldn't most of us have initiated a stop?

    I think the issue is the agents thought that they might encounter the bad guys, but it didn't seem that likely. If they knew they would find them, they would have brought more to the table.
    It rarely comes up in discussions of the Miami gunfight, but the 8 agents actually involved in the gunfight weren't the only ones out there that day. Some of this is by recollection, I don't remember where I heard it, it might have been in the video but I'm not gonna rewatch the whole thing to give a time stamp. The other is from the Forensic Analysis done by French Anderson, M.D.

    By recollection, and I deeply apologize for throwing out undocumented BS here, but maybe it will jog someone's memory and they can give a cite. One, Miami-Dade locals were part of the longer term surveillance operation, which was ongoing over a period of days/weeks. But on this particular day they were not out there. Two, the surveillance was spread out over about 100 blocks along a main highway and the plan was to bring more agents to bear if they found the subjects. Three, the car stop was initiated because the agents thought they were burned by Platt and Matix and wanted to stop them from getting back to the busier and more populated main highway, therefore initiating the stop with fewer agents than they would have liked.

    From the Forensic Analysis by French Anderson, M.D.: If you dig deep and go to Appendix III and read the supplemental statements by individual agents, Mireles makes the following statement on pages 120-121.

    "The issue of being out-gunned has been the leading topic of criticism. There were 14 agents involved in the surveillance... There were only two suspected bank robbers. A seven to one ratio of agents to suspects. Five out of the 14 agents were SWAT Team members and had "SWAT" weapons... Two SWAT members were armed with heavier weapons, one MP5 9mm submachine gun and an M-16, .223 caliber assault rifle. Out of the eight agents directly involved in the shooting incident, three were SWAT members and five were just regular agents. This combination of agents ended up that way because that was fate... The remaining six agents that were not involved in the shooting but were responding from their surveillance locations did not get to the scene until it was over. Among those six agents were the two SWAT team members, armed with the MP5 submachine gun and the M-16. The other four responding agents had four shotguns between them. Would I have wanted a machine gun and M-16 on my side of the firing line? Of course I would, but it didn't happen that way."

    From this quote I think my recollection about the other factors is correct, but I'm sorry I can't give a cite.

    Later, on page 121-122, Mireles addresses why he personally and the other agents with him weren't carrying heavier weapons. "On April 11, 1986, I was armed with every weapon that I was authorized to carry. Everyone else was carrying authorized weapons, and we were all carrying authorized ammunition... Since this incident happened, there has been a lot of research into ballistics and weapons choices. These are two of the biggest changes that we, as law enforcement officers, benefit from as a result of this incident."

    Surveillance of dangerous bad guys is always a balancing act. Surveillance, by its nature, requires remaining covert. Which means things like soft instead of hard body armor and long guns hidden out of sight. It can be disruptive to have passerby staring into your vehicle or overtly reacting to 4 guys in hard armor with long guns in an unmarked car. So these heavier units are often staged a little further out. This remains the case today, as it apparently was back then. Not much you can do about that. Spreading the surveillance out over dozens or hundreds of blocks was an attempt to improve the chances of finding Platt/Matix with the thought apparently being to vector everybody in once they were found. Again, I can't find a cite, but I think Mireles statement supports the idea that the car stop was initiated pre-maturely to prevent the subjects from getting into a more populated area. Obviously the agents would have preferred to have more long guns and people available but had to initiate early. They knew these resources were enroute and wanted to bring them to bear, but didn't. That supports the idea that they thought they were burned, but I can't find where that was from as a specific quote.

  8. #88
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    I'm familiar with the incident and as a federal LEO have personal experience conducting complex surveillance operations up to 65 miles in coverage area, and what that entails regarding weapons, gear, protective posture, etc. Thanks.

    I'm asking about what Mireles commented he may have done differently, given a different mindset.
    "Are you ready? Okay. Let's roll."- Last words of Todd Beamer

  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by TGS View Post
    I'm familiar with the incident and as a federal LEO have personal experience conducting complex surveillance operations up to 65 miles in coverage area, and what that entails regarding weapons, gear, protective posture, etc. Thanks.

    I'm asking about what Mireles commented he may have done differently, given a different mindset.
    Yup, sorry. Didn't mean to be lecturing. Just added that as a general comment. It seems Mireles' position may have changed over the years. In the quoted section he seems to be defending himself against accusations he didn't have the right mindset.

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beast17 View Post
    Obviously the agents would have preferred to have more long guns and people available but had to initiate early. They knew these resources were enroute and wanted to bring them to bear, but didn't. That supports the idea that they thought they were burned, but I can't find where that was from as a specific quote.
    I studied this firefight over and over and I believe you are correct. I recall the agents who were closest to the suspect vehicle saying Platt made eye contact, smiled, loaded a 30-round magazine in his Mini-14 and loaded a round in the chamber. He did not seem to try to conceal these actions. That is why the decision was made to do something immediately, IIRC...

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