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Thread: FBI Revolver Service Ammunition

  1. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by BobM View Post
    That reminds me, when I started in 1989, our cruisers (all four of them!) had a box of 38s (95 grain +P Silvertips) and a box of #4 buckshot in the glovebox
    What squad didn’t have a box or two of Federal Slugs rattling in the door pocket?
    I just assumed they came new from the Ford factory that way.

  2. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by Glock17JHP View Post
    I have the forensic analysis of that Miami Firefight/Shootout of 1986, and don't recall that happening during the event. Yes, at least a couple of the FBI Agents attempted/succeeded in reloading both revolvers/shotguns, but I don't recall any going into the glove box/compartment for anything including ammo.
    Glock17JHP:

    Please note that the FBI prepared a video concerning the 1986 Miami Shooting entitled: "Firefight". I watched that video early in my career. A review of the video reveals, beginning at the 28:00 minute mark, that Special Agent ("SA") Edmundo Mireles related that SA Gil Orrantia did access the spare 38 Special ammunition that was in the glove box of his FBI vehicles during this fight. Here is the link: " https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3pE4XI1dNWk". I also believe that SA, later SSA, Mireles mentions that fact in his book that he authored about the incident. I do not have a specific page reference off hand.

    Bruce
    Bruce Cartwright
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  3. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce Cartwright View Post
    Glock17JHP:

    Please note that the FBI prepared a video concerning the 1986 Miami Shooting entitled: "Firefight". I watched that video early in my career. A review of the video reveals, beginning at the 28:00 minute mark, that Special Agent ("SA") Edmundo Mireles related that SA Gil Orrantia did access the spare 38 Special ammunition that was in the glove box of his FBI vehicles during this fight. Here is the link: " https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3pE4XI1dNWk". I also believe that SA, later SSA, Mireles mentions that fact in his book that he authored about the incident. I do not have a specific page reference off hand.

    Bruce
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  4. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by HCM View Post
    Active link:

    HCM:

    Thanks, brother! My computer-fu apparently needs some practice.

    Bruce
    Bruce Cartwright
    Owner & chief instructor-SAC Tactical
    E-mail: "info@saconsco.com"
    Website: "https://saconsco.com"

  5. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by HCM View Post
    In his book, SA Ed Mireles discusses SA Gilbert Orrantia doing his second reload utilizing the spare box of ammo from the glove box.
    OK, you are correct, I looked in my book 'Forensic Analysis of the April 11, 1986, FBI Firefight' on pages 115 through 118.
    There is a copy of a 4-page letter from Orrantia to McNeill dated Feb 29, 1996 where Orrantia explains his version of the firefight.

    According to Orrantia himself:

    Orrantia fired a total of 12 rounds. After he fired his first 6 rounds he reloaded from his pouch.
    He then fired his last 6 rounds.
    After that he reloaded from an extra box of ammunition in the glove compartment, but never fired after that.

  6. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce Cartwright View Post
    Glock17JHP:

    Please note that the FBI prepared a video concerning the 1986 Miami Shooting entitled: "Firefight". I watched that video early in my career. A review of the video reveals, beginning at the 28:00 minute mark, that Special Agent ("SA") Edmundo Mireles related that SA Gil Orrantia did access the spare 38 Special ammunition that was in the glove box of his FBI vehicles during this fight. Here is the link: " https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3pE4XI1dNWk". I also believe that SA, later SSA, Mireles mentions that fact in his book that he authored about the incident. I do not have a specific page reference off hand.

    Bruce
    I have a copy of that specific FBI video 'Firefight' from my IWBA days, it is in VHS format...

  7. #77
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    A colleague reported his amazement that I rolled out at the start of my career with six in the cylinder and two speed-loaders on my belt. I responded that I often had a speed strip with six more rounds in a pocket. While we had four round magazines in the shotguns, I often had spare rounds on my person (always buckshot back then).

    I attended an FBI brief on the incident a couple years after the incident. Someone asked about transitioning from revolvers to semiautomatics. The firearms guy who responded replied that perhaps reactive squads working robberies and kidnappings might need semiautomatics, but he couldn't see giving them to agents working political corruption or counter-intelligence. I recall thinking that the Bureau hadn't learned a thing. I'm glad I was wrong about that.

    I know we have a lot of revolver guys here, but I have to say, after going to the SIG 226 9mm (for which I wrote the proposal), I never looked back at the revolver as viable for anything but back-up.

  8. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by jnc36rcpd View Post
    A colleague reported his amazement that I rolled out at the start of my career with six in the cylinder and two speed-loaders on my belt. I responded that I often had a speed strip with six more rounds in a pocket. While we had four round magazines in the shotguns, I often had spare rounds on my person (always buckshot back then).

    I attended an FBI brief on the incident a couple years after the incident. Someone asked about transitioning from revolvers to semiautomatics. The firearms guy who responded replied that perhaps reactive squads working robberies and kidnappings might need semiautomatics, but he couldn't see giving them to agents working political corruption or counter-intelligence. I recall thinking that the Bureau hadn't learned a thing. I'm glad I was wrong about that.

    I know we have a lot of revolver guys here, but I have to say, after going to the SIG 226 9mm (for which I wrote the proposal), I never looked back at the revolver as viable for anything but back-up.
    You know John,

    One of the most valuable experiences in my LE career was with you at the then Metro-Dade Police Academy Officer Survival Instructor course in 1994, where we had an afternoon with Ed Mireles. He passed on information not generally known that has stuck with me ever since. And, as much as I love revolvers, I have to say that autopistols and M4s take care of business a lot better!
    Regional Government Sales Manager for Aimpoint, Inc. USA
    Co-owner Hardwired Tactical Shooting (HiTS)

  9. #79
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    I agree completely about the Metro-Dade Police Officer Survival Instructor course, Wayne. It set the tone for much of the training I provided at my former department.

    As Wayne mentioned, Ed Mireles provided some of the training. Of course, he was peppered with questions from us then-young hot-shot instructors about why his team did this or didn't do that. One answer stuck with me when he said, "We never expected to find these guys." I've always believed and trained that every shift, every call for service, every stop, we need to expect to find these guys.

    I'll also remark that I suspect in Gordon McNeil had been armed with a 659 as Grogan and Dove were, I think that fight would have been over when he engaged the suspects car-to-car after the stop.

  10. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wayne Dobbs View Post
    And, as much as I love revolvers, I have to say that autopistols and M4s take care of business a lot better!
    Quote Originally Posted by jnc36rcpd View Post
    I've always believed and trained that every shift, every call for service, every stop, we need to expect to find these guys.
    Things that seem worth remembering.
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