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Thread: The Five Shot

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce Cartwright View Post
    Folks:
    As requested by TGS in response to my introductory thread in the General Discussion Forum, I figured I'd do a post about J frame revolvers. What follows is adapted and updated from a blog article I published on my website.

    The “Five Shot” was an FBI nickname for Smith and Wesson J frame revolvers of various models that agents could carry up until December of 2004. These were mostly chambered in .38 Special but some in .357 magnum were around. These guns typically had 2 inch long barrels and fixed sights. They could be had in the Chiefs Special configuration with an exposed hammer, the Body Guard style with a hammer that was shrouded and the Centennial style with a completely enclosed hammer. The guns could either be blued steel or stainless steel, but I don’t believe nickel finished guns were authorized. Airweight models with aluminum frames were not authorized. The FBI Personally Owned Weapon List (“POW”) at the time, allowed for an agent to carry a variety of revolvers made by Smith and Wesson (and possibly Colt) provided they were blue or stainless, chambered in .38 special or .357 magnum, with fixed or adjustable sights and had barrels between 2 and 4 inches in length. Sadly, the Five Shot, was withdrawn from the POW list on December 31, 2004.

    Since the Bureau typically operates in plain clothes as an investigative agency, lots of agents carried these guns. Even as late as the 1990s, when I joined the Bureau, there were still a large number of agents that carried these guns, especially lots of supervisors who didn’t do lots of street work. Supervisors were supposed to be armed and this was a small lightweight option for them. There was another group of agents that used these guns as back up weapons. Lots of Bureau heavy hitters carried this type of gun. My personal choice was a Smith and Wesson Model 640 in 38 Special. This was one of the early "38" frame guns and a gift from my bride. The stocks were made by Craig Spegel in walnut. I was still a relatively new agent when I was able to order these stocks from Mr. Spegel and I chose to keep costs down which is why they are not checkered. I have huge hands (I wear XXL gloves) and these stocks drastically improved my ability to shoot this gun. The gun has lots of scratches and bumps and dings. I carried it daily.

    An agent had to qualify with their Five Shot and did so on regular qualification course that included a 25 yard stage. While the Five Shots were not easy to shoot, they were accurate. My worst score with my Five Shot was 92 percent. I shot many 100 percent scores, but I had had to work at it.

    These guns filled a niche that is only starting to be addressed today-that of a small, highly concealable gun. The Five Shots could easily be carried in a coat pocket in your hand and surreptitiously pointed at a subject without anyone noticing, if need be. I did it several times and was able to cover my partner during a particularly tense encounter once. Most of the time these guns rode in ankle holsters, coat pockets and trouser pockets.

    The Five Shot was not a gun you chose to go to war with. Rather, it supplemented your bigger gun(s). They were usually very reliable and hence were often carried when bigger guns couldn’t be used/concealed. It was nearly a decade after the Five Shot was taken off the POW list, that truly reliable small semiautomatic pistols (think S&W Shield) have been marketed. When I wrote this article in late 2017, the Bureau still had not authorized a truly small semiauto pistol that would fill the niche that the Five Shot occupied for so long. My understanding is the Glock 43 is now authorized for agents to carry.

    Today, most think these are guns for more experienced shooters and I agree. They lack capacity, have relatively heavy trigger pulls and are hard to shoot. But the Five Shot fills a niche that is only now beginning to be filled. I stopped carrying my stainless Centennial on the last day of December 2004 and regretted not being able to do so for the remainder of the time I carried the FBI badge and creds. Great little guns.
    I’ve been told they were withdrawn upon the retirement of the last revolver qualified armorer from the gun vault in Quantico.

    Were ya’ll restricted to steel frame J’s ?

    It’s successor, the G27 is also difficult to shoot well.

    Your successors were recently authorized the Glock 43 and 43x for he BUG / off duty role.
    Last edited by HCM; 05-08-2020 at 01:58 PM.

  2. #12
    Site Supporter Det1397's Avatar
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    Many years ago, as a new cop, I attended a two day firearms course out at the old Pine Barrens/IRTC Range in Westhampton, hosted by Dean Speir and featuring Ken Hackathorn. While doing some inside work on fundamentals and the sort, Ken introduces us (me!) to a 642 he was caring as a bug in his front pocket. From that day on, I never looked back during my long LE career. Very rarely was I not armed with a 642 or a 342ti as my BUG for the remainder of my career, either in uniform, detective and plainclothes. Can't beat their simplicity and reliability, so long as you practice and maintain skill level and maintenance.

  3. #13
    You guys are tempting me to ask my SFI if we have any of the steel framed, agency owned J Frames in the arms room.
    My posts only represent my personal opinion and do not necessarily reflect the opinions or official policies of any employer, past or present. Obvious spelling errors are likely the result of an iPhone keyboard.

  4. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by camsdaddy View Post
    That a very nice J frame. It has a lot of character and shows to have been used for its intended purpose.

    In 04 did most agents swap to Glock 26/27 size guns or something else for back up and personal carry?
    Camsdaddy:
    A number of agents migrated towards the Glock 26 and 27. I'd say initially more favored the 27. As time wore on and the bullet technology improved, I believe there was a shift towards the 26. That said, while I had and carried a G27, I found it bigger than necessary and not optimal for my preferred pocket carry.
    Bruce
    Bruce Cartwright
    Owner & chief instructor-SAC Tactical
    E-mail: "info@saconsco.com"
    Website: "https://saconsco.com"

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanM View Post
    You guys are tempting me to ask my SFI if we have any of the steel framed, agency owned J Frames in the arms room.
    If you want one, do so sooner rather than later.

  6. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by 03RN View Post
    Thanks for sharing

    Are any revolvers allowed?
    03RN:
    No revolvers were allowed for carry after December 31, 2004. We still had them in inventory but the authorization to carry them in performance of our duties was withdrawn. What was left in inventory were mainly used for demonstration and training purposes. Hope that clarifies things.
    Bruce
    Bruce Cartwright
    Owner & chief instructor-SAC Tactical
    E-mail: "info@saconsco.com"
    Website: "https://saconsco.com"

  7. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by HCM View Post
    I’ve been told they were withdrawn upon the retirement of the last revolver qualified armorer from the gun vault in Quantico.

    Were ya’ll restricted to steel frame J’s ?

    It’s successor, the G27 is also difficult to shoot well.

    Your successors were recently authorized the Glock 43 and 43x for he BUG / off duty role.
    HCM:
    We were restricted to steel frame revolvers only. As I understand it, the J frames (and indeed all revolvers) were withdrawn from service because of the Bureau's desire to reduce expenses in keeping an inventory of parts on hand to repair an ever shrinking number of older guns. I knew most, if not all, of the gunsmiths at the Gun Vault at the time and there were a number of highly skilled gunsmiths that would have been able to maintain revolvers. As to the G27, you aren't kidding-they do have significant recoil. That said, I found the G23 harder to shoot than either the G27 or G22.
    As to the G43 and G43X, I believe you are correct.
    Bruce
    Bruce Cartwright
    Owner & chief instructor-SAC Tactical
    E-mail: "info@saconsco.com"
    Website: "https://saconsco.com"

  8. #18
    THE THIRST MUTILATOR Nephrology's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce Cartwright View Post
    HCM:
    We were restricted to steel frame revolvers only. As I understand it, the J frames (and indeed all revolvers) were withdrawn from service because of the Bureau's desire to reduce expenses in keeping an inventory of parts on hand to repair an ever shrinking number of older guns. I knew most, if not all, of the gunsmiths at the Gun Vault at the time and there were a number of highly skilled gunsmiths that would have been able to maintain revolvers. As to the G27, you aren't kidding-they do have significant recoil. That said, I found the G23 harder to shoot than either the G27 or G22.
    As to the G43 and G43X, I believe you are correct.
    Bruce
    The G23 is the only pistol I have ever sold with extreme prejudice, i.e., took very first offer at a lowball price, never looked back.

  9. #19
    Member gato naranja's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce Cartwright View Post
    My personal choice was a Smith and Wesson Model 640 in 38 Special. This was one of the early "38" frame guns and a gift from my bride. The stocks were made by Craig Spegel in walnut.
    That is the very revolver that was considered the best all-around representative of the genre EVER, according to those I knew who needed such a thing back in the day. Wish I had glommed onto a couple of them when the glomming was easy.
    gn

    "On the internet, nobody knows if you are a dog... or even a cat."

  10. #20
    Revolvers Revolvers 1911s Stephanie B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nephrology View Post
    The G23 is the only pistol I have ever sold with extreme prejudice, i.e., took very first offer at a lowball price, never looked back.
    Agreed. I traded one for a Taurus 605.
    If we have to march off into the next world, let us walk there on the bodies of our enemies.

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