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Thread: The Five Shot

  1. #1

    The Five Shot

    Folks:
    As requested by TGS in response to my introductory thread in the General Discussion Forum, I figured I'd do a post about J frame revolvers. What follows is adapted and updated from a blog article I published on my website.

    The “Five Shot” was an FBI nickname for Smith and Wesson J frame revolvers of various models that agents could carry up until December of 2004. These were mostly chambered in .38 Special but some in .357 magnum were around. These guns typically had 2 inch long barrels and fixed sights. They could be had in the Chiefs Special configuration with an exposed hammer, the Body Guard style with a hammer that was shrouded and the Centennial style with a completely enclosed hammer. The guns could either be blued steel or stainless steel, but I don’t believe nickel finished guns were authorized. Airweight models with aluminum frames were not authorized. The FBI Personally Owned Weapon List (“POW”) at the time, allowed for an agent to carry a variety of revolvers made by Smith and Wesson (and possibly Colt) provided they were blue or stainless, chambered in .38 special or .357 magnum, with fixed or adjustable sights and had barrels between 2 and 4 inches in length. Sadly, the Five Shot, was withdrawn from the POW list on December 31, 2004.

    Since the Bureau typically operates in plain clothes as an investigative agency, lots of agents carried these guns. Even as late as the 1990s, when I joined the Bureau, there were still a large number of agents that carried these guns, especially lots of supervisors who didn’t do lots of street work. Supervisors were supposed to be armed and this was a small lightweight option for them. There was another group of agents that used these guns as back up weapons. Lots of Bureau heavy hitters carried this type of gun. My personal choice was a Smith and Wesson Model 640 in 38 Special. This was one of the early "38" frame guns and a gift from my bride. The stocks were made by Craig Spegel in walnut. I was still a relatively new agent when I was able to order these stocks from Mr. Spegel and I chose to keep costs down which is why they are not checkered. I have huge hands (I wear XXL gloves) and these stocks drastically improved my ability to shoot this gun. The gun has lots of scratches and bumps and dings. I carried it daily.

    An agent had to qualify with their Five Shot and did so on regular qualification course that included a 25 yard stage. While the Five Shots were not easy to shoot, they were accurate. My worst score with my Five Shot was 92 percent. I shot many 100 percent scores, but I had had to work at it.

    These guns filled a niche that is only starting to be addressed today-that of a small, highly concealable gun. The Five Shots could easily be carried in a coat pocket in your hand and surreptitiously pointed at a subject without anyone noticing, if need be. I did it several times and was able to cover my partner during a particularly tense encounter once. Most of the time these guns rode in ankle holsters, coat pockets and trouser pockets.

    The Five Shot was not a gun you chose to go to war with. Rather, it supplemented your bigger gun(s). They were usually very reliable and hence were often carried when bigger guns couldn’t be used/concealed. It was nearly a decade after the Five Shot was taken off the POW list, that truly reliable small semiautomatic pistols (think S&W Shield) have been marketed. When I wrote this article in late 2017, the Bureau still had not authorized a truly small semiauto pistol that would fill the niche that the Five Shot occupied for so long. My understanding is the Glock 43 is now authorized for agents to carry.

    Today, most think these are guns for more experienced shooters and I agree. They lack capacity, have relatively heavy trigger pulls and are hard to shoot. But the Five Shot fills a niche that is only now beginning to be filled. I stopped carrying my stainless Centennial on the last day of December 2004 and regretted not being able to do so for the remainder of the time I carried the FBI badge and creds. Great little guns.
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    Bruce Cartwright
    Owner & chief instructor-SAC Tactical
    E-mail: "info@saconsco.com"
    Website: "https://saconsco.com"

  2. #2
    THE THIRST MUTILATOR Nephrology's Avatar
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    Sep 2011
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    Great post! Love the perspective you provide on their use with the FBI.

  3. #3
    I love my J frame! It makes me concentrate more to shoot accurately, but it makes up for it when I carry it.

  4. #4
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    That a very nice J frame. It has a lot of character and shows to have been used for its intended purpose.

    In 04 did most agents swap to Glock 26/27 size guns or something else for back up and personal carry?

  5. #5
    Site Supporter Paul D's Avatar
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    Feb 2011
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    Thank you for that fantastic write up. Do you have any examples were the 5 shot was used by FBI agents; how it performed and lessons learned afterwards?

  6. #6
    banana republican blues's Avatar
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    When I started federal service in the early 80's we were issued the 2" Model 15 and, some of the "cool guys", a Model 36. Extra points if you were issued both. Virtually everyone carried a Model 36 off-duty. Had to be blue steel. No shiny guns allowed. (That was the NYPD standard back then as well, as I recall.)

    I last qualified on the job with a Model 36 in 1995 or 1996 when I transitioned to a Glock 26 in its place.

    Now that I'm retired, a 642-1 is back as part of my "home and environs" carry. What goes around, comes around it seems.
    There's nothing civil about this war.

    Read: Harrison Bergeron

  7. #7
    Site Supporter Rex G's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce Cartwright View Post
    Folks:
    As requested by TGS in response to my introductory thread in the General Discussion Forum, I figured I'd do a post about J frame revolvers. What follows is adapted and updated from a blog article I published on my website.

    The “Five Shot” was an FBI nickname for Smith and Wesson J frame revolvers of various models that agents could carry up until December of 2004. These were mostly chambered in .38 Special but some in .357 magnum were around. These guns typically had 2 inch long barrels and fixed sights. They could be had in the Chiefs Special configuration with an exposed hammer, the Body Guard style with a hammer that was shrouded and the Centennial style with a completely enclosed hammer. The guns could either be blued steel or stainless steel, but I don’t believe nickel finished guns were authorized. Airweight models with aluminum frames were not authorized. The FBI Personally Owned Weapon List (“POW”) at the time, allowed for an agent to carry a variety of revolvers made by Smith and Wesson (and possibly Colt) provided they were blue or stainless, chambered in .38 special or .357 magnum, with fixed or adjustable sights and had barrels between 2 and 4 inches in length. Sadly, the Five Shot, was withdrawn from the POW list on December 31, 2004.

    Since the Bureau typically operates in plain clothes as an investigative agency, lots of agents carried these guns. Even as late as the 1990s, when I joined the Bureau, there were still a large number of agents that carried these guns, especially lots of supervisors who didn’t do lots of street work. Supervisors were supposed to be armed and this was a small lightweight option for them. There was another group of agents that used these guns as back up weapons. Lots of Bureau heavy hitters carried this type of gun. My personal choice was a Smith and Wesson Model 640 in 38 Special. This was one of the early "38" frame guns and a gift from my bride. The stocks were made by Craig Spegel in walnut. I was still a relatively new agent when I was able to order these stocks from Mr. Spegel and I chose to keep costs down which is why they are not checkered. I have huge hands (I wear XXL gloves) and these stocks drastically improved my ability to shoot this gun. The gun has lots of scratches and bumps and dings. I carried it daily.

    An agent had to qualify with their Five Shot and did so on regular qualification course that included a 25 yard stage. While the Five Shots were not easy to shoot, they were accurate. My worst score with my Five Shot was 92 percent. I shot many 100 percent scores, but I had had to work at it.

    These guns filled a niche that is only starting to be addressed today-that of a small, highly concealable gun. The Five Shots could easily be carried in a coat pocket in your hand and surreptitiously pointed at a subject without anyone noticing, if need be. I did it several times and was able to cover my partner during a particularly tense encounter once. Most of the time these guns rode in ankle holsters, coat pockets and trouser pockets.

    The Five Shot was not a gun you chose to go to war with. Rather, it supplemented your bigger gun(s). They were usually very reliable and hence were often carried when bigger guns couldn’t be used/concealed. It was nearly a decade after the Five Shot was taken off the POW list, that truly reliable small semiautomatic pistols (think S&W Shield) have been marketed. When I wrote this article in late 2017, the Bureau still had not authorized a truly small semiauto pistol that would fill the niche that the Five Shot occupied for so long. My understanding is the Glock 43 is now authorized for agents to carry.

    Today, most think these are guns for more experienced shooters and I agree. They lack capacity, have relatively heavy trigger pulls and are hard to shoot. But the Five Shot fills a niche that is only now beginning to be filled. I stopped carrying my stainless Centennial on the last day of December 2004 and regretted not being able to do so for the remainder of the time I carried the FBI badge and creds. Great little guns.
    Well-written. Thanks for sharing this.
    Retar’d LE. Kinesthetic dufus.

    Don’t tread on volcanos!

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by blues View Post
    When I started federal service in the early 80's we were issued the 2" Model 15 and, some of the "cool guys", a Model 36. Extra points if you were issued both. Virtually everyone carried a Model 36 off-duty. Had to be blue steel. No shiny guns allowed. (That was the NYPD standard back then as well, as I recall.)

    I last qualified on the job with a Model 36 in 1995 or 1996 when I transitioned to a Glock 26 in its place.

    Now that I'm retired, a 642-1 is back as part of my "home and environs" carry. What goes around, comes around it seems.
    Our agency ceased approving new POW J frames a bit over a year ago though grandfathered POW and GOV issued J frames remain in service. My 340 is the last J frame in service in my office out of approximately 700 LEO in the AOR. I find it fill the BUG role better than small autos.

    The steel rams only requirement was dropped about 10 years ago but may have contributed to the demise of the J in service as all J’s out into service had to be sent to armory operations for inspection which included X-raying for defects.
    Last edited by HCM; 05-08-2020 at 01:56 PM.

  9. #9
    The Nostomaniac 03RN's Avatar
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    Aug 2017
    Location
    New Hampshire
    Thanks for sharing

    Are any revolvers allowed?

  10. #10

    Love the J-Frame

    Yes, I have 5 pocket guns and 5 micro 9mm's. Shoot often. But man do I love the 642 frame for Carry. So Very Simple for carrying every single day. Day in and out. So easy to check, unload, etc. And so fun to shoot!! Nice and lightweight.

    My favorite PLINKER of all time is the LCR22. I love the small revolvers and so under rated.

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