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Thread: The Five Shot

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by EDW View Post
    Steering back toward the topic of five-shots –

    Just after the turn of the century the Bureau put together a draft new qualification course that combined elements of the DAC and the original PQC with the idea of having a single qual course for both revolvers and autos, which they initially dubbed the Handgun Qualification Course. It took a decade to make this litigation-resistant enough for deployment, and by then the revolvers had dropped out, so after a lot of vigorous discussion and some tweaking it ended up as the revised “PQC” of 2012.

    It is possible, but not easy, to clean the PQC’12 with a K-frame. The hump to get over is eight rounds in eight seconds at the 7-yard line from concealment starting with hands together in front of the torso.

    With a five-shot it is effectively impossible to clean the course, as you can’t avoid eating a round at the 3-yard line. Also, with the J-frame I have never been able to finish the reload in time at the 7 (using either the HKS or the Safariland Comp I loaders) mainly because of the short ejector rods on the 2” guns. However, even if you eat these additional three rounds at the 7, you only need 48 hits out of 60 to pass, meaning you can miss an additional EIGHT ROUNDS and still “qualify” on the course with a J-frame.

    As we get further away from the revolver era, the convivial notion of having one course that can cover both types of handguns is receding. The PQC revisions that went into effect in 2019 now require 40 hits out of 50 rounds, but if you don’t make the reload at 7, with the five-shot you now eat three rounds there, plus one at 3 yards, one at 5, and usually three more at the 25, for a total of eight rounds, leaving a margin of only two additional misses to still “pass.” Not quite so easy anymore.

    Because I can’t do it, I am intent on eventually cleaning the 7-yard reload stage of the PQC’12/’19. I refer to it as the Brick Agent Challenge, given that almost any agent who shot someone with a wheelgun these days would be facing some serious brick time. In practice, after the reload and the last three shots I transition to sight on the head of the target, to remind myself to be precise if I were ever to need the last two rounds.

    Recently, I finally got around to ordering from Pistoleer some of the Jet-Loader-brand speedloaders for the J-frame. To my surprise I find that these things--in stock form--load as slick as Bubbarized Comp IIIs in a K-frame. I think these will save me enough time eventually to get down under eight seconds. If not, I may have to ditch the belt holster and resort to the subterfuge of starting with the pocketed revolver in hand, which should save another .75 seconds or so.

    Once over this hump I’ll start working on the new 25-yard stage by shooting four standing, and then attempting to reload five while moving to kneeling to shoot four more under the new twenty-second time limit. Cleaning the 7 and the 25 would result in a possible 48/50 on the PQC’19. Anyone who can shoot a 48 on this course with a five-shot is pretty good. Someday I would like to be pretty good.

    [P.S., if anybody tries any of this, let’s stipulate that the speedloader must be concealed -- no staging the loader in your teeth, tempting though it may be.]

    [P.P.S., I'd post links to the 2012 and 2019 versions of the PQC if I were tech savvy, but I'm not there yet. Maybe someone else could do the honors? If so, thanks!]
    2019 50 Round PQC - https://www.activeresponsetraining.n...ication-course

    -3 yards Draw and fire 3 rds strong hand only, switch hands and fire 3 rds support hand only, all in 6 seconds



    -5 yards Draw and fire 3 rds in 3 seconds
    -From the Ready, fire 3 rds in 2 seconds
    -From the Ready, fire 6 rds in 4 seconds



    -7 yards Draw and fire 5 rds in 5 seconds
    -From the Ready, fire 4 rounds, conduct an empty gun reload, and fire 4 more rds, all in 8 seconds
    -From the Ready, fire 5 rounds in 4 seconds



    -15 yards Draw and fire 3 rds in 6 seconds
    -From the Ready, fire 3 rds in 5 seconds



    -25 yards Draw and fire 4 rds from Standing, drop to a Kneeling Position and fire 4 more rds from Kneeling, all in 20 seconds.



    50 rounds total 100 points possible 90 or above is a pass for instructors.
    For the 2019/50 round version there are two common magazine load outs: 3x12, 1x14 or 4x9 with 14 loose rounds in the pocket, before the start of the 7 yard line stage, reload two mag 1x6 and 1x8. Use the 6 rounder first.

    2014 60 round PQC https://www.activeresponsetraining.n...ification-test

    From Three Yards (12 rounds fired):

    – 3 shots in 3 seconds, strong hand only

    – repeat above for 3 more rounds

    – 3 rounds strong hand only, switch hands, 3 rounds weak hand only in a total of 8 seconds


    From Five Yards (12 rounds fired) (all shooting at this stage and during each subsequent stage is performed with both hands):

    – 3 rounds in 3 seconds

    – repeat 3 more times for a total of 12 rounds fired


    From Seven Yards (16 rounds fired):

    – 4 rounds in 4 seconds

    – repeat above for 4 more rounds

    – 4 rounds, reload, then fire 4 more rounds all completed in 8 seconds



    From 15 yards (10 rounds fired):

    – 3 rounds in 6 seconds

    – repeat above for 3 more rounds

    – 4 rounds in 8 seconds


    From 25 Yards: (10 rounds fired) (This stage requires the use of a barricade. I use a cardboard target for simplicity and ease of carry):


    – Move up to the cover and fire 2 rounds standing and then 3 rounds kneeling, all under 15 seconds.

    – Repeat above
    Last edited by HCM; 05-14-2020 at 07:50 PM.

  2. #62
    Revolvers Revolvers 1911s Stephanie B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Screwball View Post
    We had a trainee that was down at FLETC... sent back here for a hurricane. Got to the airport, and couldn’t put his gun belt (with red gun) in his checked bag, nor the carry-on. Solution? Put it on and walk through TSA under his raincoat.
    Why was he walking around with a red gun?
    If we have to march off into the next world, let us walk there on the bodies of our enemies.

  3. #63
    Site Supporter entropy's Avatar
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    Sometimes, folks do things that make you stop dead in your tracks, scratch your head, and ponder the universe...
    Working diligently to enlarge my group size.

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Stephanie B View Post
    Why was he walking around with a red gun?
    Because he was stupid and didn’t leave it at FLETC... and since he was at the airport... that was all he could think of.

    Wasn’t the sharpest knife in the drawer.

  5. #65
    Revolvers Revolvers 1911s Stephanie B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Screwball View Post
    Because he was stupid and didn’t leave it at FLETC... and since he was at the airport... that was all he could think of.

    Wasn’t the sharpest knife in the drawer.
    I got that, but in general, why was he walking around with a red gun at FLETC? Is that some sort of "this is what it's like to wear a gun" thing?

    Which reminds me of a story from when I was in Missouri: The local community college had a police academy program. It was kind of a shitty deal, because the kids went there, paid tuition and for that, got a shot at hiring on to a small-town department for $12/hr. Anyhoo, I was at Panera having lunch with some friends when four of the kids came in, wearing their school uniforms and holstered blue Glocks. I started chuckling. When one of my lunchmates asked why, I said it was dead-nuts certain that there were more real guns in the place than those fake ones.
    If we have to march off into the next world, let us walk there on the bodies of our enemies.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stephanie B View Post
    I got that, but in general, why was he walking around with a red gun at FLETC? Is that some sort of "this is what it's like to wear a gun" thing?
    Yes, exactly that. It’s pretty standard in LE training programs.

    Part of it is getting used to wearing gear all day, part of it is that the red/blue guns are to be treated as live guns. Silly as it seems, it’s an opportunity to cull those who can’t follow simple directions like this.

    FLETC is closed campus located on former naval air station. It operates as a closed campus. More-so than most military bases do now a-days.

  7. #67
    FWIW, I’ve seen “red”(nonfiring)Glocks and blue pieces of plastic shaped like a pistol in cadet holsters at state and city levels. I believe the Bureau and DEA use them with agents-in-training. Blue paint pellet Glocks(“17T”) are also used in FoF.
    My understanding is that cadets are instructed to treat them as real-disciplined if they are “played”/horsed around with.
    Makes some sense for safe dry firing, etc. I remember a few years back after my youngest daughter returned from GUNSITE: she was a HS senior and several boys were in awe that she had shot a real pistol. These comments from boys who were from middle class families most of whom could be considered “conservative”(she graduated from a private Christian school). One boy stated he had shot a pellet gun, another played a lot of video games. She said she preferred “her” G19 as it was the real thing(!)She carries it or a 43 to this day.
    It’s been mildly surprising to me how few people in urban/suburban locales actually train/practice(see Karl Rehn). Here at PF we enjoy a competent but pretty small community. Most folks have no or negative exposure to firearms, hence the “training non guns”. Give ‘em a little handling before live ammo...

  8. #68
    And thanks @HCM for the post. I tried to google FBI pistol qual, and got some weird google message. Might have woke somebody up at NSA...

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Wayne Dobbs View Post
    Shooting a possible on the TRC was an achievement for sure. Lots of 25 and 50 yard shooting on that one. My current quest is to shoot a perfect 400/400 on the LAPD Advanced Combat Course AKA the "Bonus Course", which is a butt kicker.
    Wayne,

    Would you mind posting the course of fire for the LAPD Bonus Course? And if necessary, details on how one might adapt it to a normal range like DPC. I can't seem to find the details.
    David S.

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by David S. View Post
    Wayne,

    Would you mind posting the course of fire for the LAPD Bonus Course? And if necessary, details on how one might adapt it to a normal range like DPC. I can't seem to find the details.
    The .pdf in this link includes the Bonus qualification course of fire and the BT-5 target is readily available from several online vendors:

    http://www.handgunlaw.us/documents/H...GKP-xaMbVjXqe4

    Here's a video of the course being fired:

    https://youtu.be/x2z4jHa5-ug

    It may be worth noting that the 10 ring is about the same size if a different shape than that on a B-27. And L.A.P.D. has it's own BT-5 variant with a somewhat generous full value headbox. The standard BT-5 lacks that.

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