The Five Shot

[EDW]

Regarding the Colt question, the 4” Colt Police Positive Special was standard issue for agents when they were first each permanently-assigned a handgun in 1933, supplanted by the 4" Official Police by the late Thirties. In October 1934, Melvin Purvis fired his Colt Detective Special at Pretty Boy Floyd and missed him with all six shots. [At 60 yards. I have long wondered why stage 2 of the original PPC started prone at 60, instead of 50. Perhaps it has its roots in this incident and the expression, “Don’t embarrass the Bureau!”]

The Colts started to fall out of favor when double-action shooting beyond 7 yards was implemented and became common in the Fifties. In the early Seventies, the Bureau adopted the 158 gr. LHP +P (St. Louis/Chicago/FBI load) as its new Service round and asked the manufacturers about using this ammunition in their guns. As I recall it from third-hand reports outside the Bureau, Colt initially equivocated before eventually giving a conditional yes. Unsatisfied, the Bureau decided to recall from the Field all the issue Colt .38 revolvers.

[Sadly, the 1934-circa Super .38s in my old office’s vault were sent back to Quantico with all the Colt revolvers in response to this edict. Either the PFI didn’t know what he was doing (“Hey Bob, it says Colt .38 right here on the slide of this old gun”), or he did (“Hey Bob, let’s slip in these old .38 autos so we don’t have to inventory them every year anymore”). I always wished I had had a chance to shoot them to see if they would stay on the Colt Silhouette at 60 yards. Somewhere I have read that some Colt specialists suggest that high-end pre-war Supers didn’t show the accuracy problems that plagued later specimens due to inconsistent head-spacing on the rim.]

A number of the Official Police revolvers were later returned to the Field as deactivated non-firing “red-handles” which were used as prop guns for training exercises. At the turn of the century we had one older agent in our office who still had a Colt Detective Special on his POW list. He must have gotten it approved a quarter-century prior, just before the recall. He didn’t qualify with it or carry it on duty to my knowledge. In the wake of the lost guns and laptops scandal of 2001, the Bureau got a little more religious about purging the POW lists of any guns that were not qualified with annually, and the old Colt officially vanished from the rolls for good late that year. That was the last operable Colt revolver I ever heard of in the Bureau outside the FBI Lab.

Oops -- I had forgotten that they had Hoover’s issue 1937 3” Colt Pocket Positive .32 with bobbed hammer in a display case at the Quantico Gun Vault a few years ago and it is probably still there. No obvious signs that it had been deactivated. I think these were very rare. The late Larry Wack’s Dusty Roads website shows Tolson owned a POW Colt PP .32, also dated 1937, and that Hoover owned a presentation model 2” nickel POW Colt PP.32 with bobbed hammer dated 1938. The internal inventory of original Buguns on hand when the War on Crime began, also set forth on that site, shows that there were two additional .32 caliber Colt revolvers located in the San Francisco office in 1933. Make of all that what you will. A relative of mine had long-standing good service from a Smith M31-1 in .32 Long, so I kind of like the 6-shot .32 caliber “Hoover Special.” I think we can conclude from the above that any small-frame six-shot .32 with either a 2” or 3” barrel can legitimately be termed a Hoover Special. I wouldn’t mind having a Smith M432 myself someday.

[Bruce Cartwright]

Regarding the Colt question, the 4” Colt Police Positive Special was standard issue for agents when they were first each permanently-assigned a handgun in 1933, supplanted by the 4" Official Police by the late Thirties. In October 1934, Melvin Purvis fired his Colt Detective Special at Pretty Boy Floyd and missed him with all six shots. [At 60 yards. I have long wondered why stage 2 of the original PPC started prone at 60, instead of 50. Perhaps it has its roots in this incident and the expression, “Don’t embarrass the Bureau!”]

The Colts started to fall out of favor when double-action shooting beyond 7 yards was implemented and became common in the Fifties. In the early Seventies, the Bureau adopted the 158 gr. LHP +P (St. Louis/Chicago/FBI load) as its new Service round and asked the manufacturers about using this ammunition in their guns. As I recall it from third-hand reports outside the Bureau, Colt initially equivocated before eventually giving a conditional yes. Unsatisfied, the Bureau decided to recall from the Field all the issue Colt .38 revolvers.

[Sadly, the 1934-circa Super .38s in my old office’s vault were sent back to Quantico with all the Colt revolvers in response to this edict. Either the PFI didn’t know what he was doing (“Hey Bob, it says Colt .38 right here on the slide of this old gun”), or he did (“Hey Bob, let’s slip in these old .38 autos so we don’t have to inventory them every year anymore”). I always wished I had had a chance to shoot them to see if they would stay on the Colt Silhouette at 60 yards. Somewhere I have read that some Colt specialists suggest that high-end pre-war Supers didn’t show the accuracy problems that plagued later specimens due to inconsistent head-spacing on the rim.]

A number of the Official Police revolvers were later returned to the Field as deactivated non-firing “red-handles” which were used as prop guns for training exercises. At the turn of the century we had one older agent in our office who still had a Colt Detective Special on his POW list. He must have gotten it approved a quarter-century prior, just before the recall. He didn’t qualify with it or carry it on duty to my knowledge. In the wake of the lost guns and laptops scandal of 2001, the Bureau got a little more religious about purging the POW lists of any guns that were not qualified with annually, and the old Colt officially vanished from the rolls for good late that year. That was the last operable Colt revolver I ever heard of in the Bureau outside the FBI Lab.

Oops -- I had forgotten that they had Hoover’s issue 1937 3” Colt Pocket Positive .32 with bobbed hammer in a display case at the Quantico Gun Vault a few years ago and it is probably still there. No obvious signs that it had been deactivated. I think these were very rare. The late Larry Wack’s Dusty Roads website shows Tolson owned a POW Colt PP .32, also dated 1937, and that Hoover owned a presentation model 2” nickel POW Colt PP.32 with bobbed hammer dated 1938. The internal inventory of original Buguns on hand when the War on Crime began, also set forth on that site, shows that there were two additional .32 caliber Colt revolvers located in the San Francisco office in 1933. Make of all that what you will. A relative of mine had long-standing good service from a Smith M31-1 in .32 Long, so I kind of like the 6-shot .32 caliber “Hoover Special.” I think we can conclude from the above that any small-frame six-shot .32 with either a 2” or 3” barrel can legitimately be termed a Hoover Special. I wouldn’t mind having a Smith M432 myself someday.

EDW:
Thank you for updating us on the FBI/Colt revolver history. Col. Jeff Cooper opined that we should memorialize via written word anything we find significant. So much of our history is being lost to the ages because we don't commit it to paper. I am sure you heard the old Bureau adage: If it isn't on paper, it didn't occur". That applies here. Your contribution is much appreciated.
As to the 38 Super Colts, I observed one in the Gun Vault in our Washington DC field office. It had been rendered inoperable and turned into a "red handle". When I first saw it, I damn near cried. I did put that gun to good use-my son learned how to field strip a 1911 using it.
As to Mr. Hoover's Colt, it was still hanging on the wall in the Gun Vault when I last visited in 2016.
Bruce

[spinmove_]

I don’t mean to derail the thread to hard with this question, but I also didn’t figure it warranted it’s own thread. If it does, please feel free to split it.

Just out of curiosity, why is it here in the US revolvers were the prevailing sidearm of choice whereas throughout Europe it seems semi-auto pistols were the prevailing style of sidearm? I get that the 1911 was expensive to produce, but surely there were other options?

[1Rangemaster]

I don’t mean to derail the thread to hard with this question, but I also didn’t figure it warranted it’s own thread. If it does, please feel free to split it.

Just out of curiosity, why is it here in the US revolvers were the prevailing sidearm of choice whereas throughout Europe it seems semi-auto pistols were the prevailing style of sidearm? I get that the 1911 was expensive to produce, but surely there were other options?

An interesting question-several factors and ways to look at this. To the contrary, the Brits(many of whom would be offended at being viewed as “European”) used revolvers,e.g., Webleys, through WW2. The Russians had the 1895 Nagant. On the Euro continent, semi autos become popular beginning with the 1896 Mauser through the Borchardt/Luger, etc. JMO, but I think part of the reason the semiautomatic became more popular is that it was more efficient and smokeless powder was up and coming. Lighter projectiles at higher velocities began to be rapidly accepted from rifle calibers on down to handguns. The military influenced law enforcement equipment in Europe. All sorts of makers made pistols-Mauser, Walther, Sauer, etc.
In the USA, revolvers utilized black powder-.45 Colt-and transitioned to smokeless as that technology developed. Recall that T Roosevelt was first a NYC Police commissioner, and issued revolvers. That probably had some influence, and revolvers were simpler to live with. There were individual exceptions in the early 20th century in American LE: some Texas Rangers carried 1911s. Some big city cops carried autos when allowed. But after the Kansas City massacre, Hoover wanted some gunmen, and men like “Jelly” Bryce came onboard and were revolver men. Other officers/agents like Jordan and Askins were issued/shot revolvers and wrote about them, further influencing US LE. The US military had decided on a semiauto after a dubious flirtation with a .38 revolver. Cops stuck with the revolvers ; if things got serious, shotguns, Thompsons and rifles were all broken out.
US LE agencies did not move to the semiautomatics organizationally until the 70s and 80s. I’m not sure why the Illinois State Police adopted a S&W auto, but they did and it was news. Officers thought they needed “firepower” in their sidearms, and it was off to the races...

[EDW]

EDW:
Thank you for updating us on the FBI/Colt revolver history. Col. Jeff Cooper opined that we should memorialize via written word anything we find significant. So much of our history is being lost to the ages because we don't commit it to paper. I am sure you heard the old Bureau adage: If it isn't on paper, it didn't occur". That applies here. Your contribution is much appreciated.
As to the 38 Super Colts, I observed one in the Gun Vault in our Washington DC field office. It had been rendered inoperable and turned into a "red handle". When I first saw it, I damn near cried. I did put that gun to good use-my son learned how to field strip a 1911 using it.
As to Mr. Hoover's Colt, it was still hanging on the wall in the Gun Vault when I last visited in 2016.
Bruce

Bruce,
Thank you. Glad to contribute what I can to a good thread.

By any chance do you recall if that redhandle was inscribed “Super Match” or something similar, or if it had high-visibility adjustable sights? Most of the pictures I have seen of the Supers appear to show standard commercial Colts with the small fixed sights, such as the photo on p. 15 of Vanderpool’s book. I have been trying to pin down if any of them might have been the Nat’l Match upgraded versions.

I cringe when I think of what the future holds for all the remaining heirlooms of LEO history spread throughout the field office vaults. We don’t know our own history, so things get destroyed all the time just because people don’t appreciate what they have. When I first showed up in my old office they were throwing out the old custom “Kansas City Trunk Co” cases from 1935 built to discretely transport in public a broken-down Thompson, its loaded mags and spare parts. They had gotten separated from the Tommyguns in the vault some years before, and nobody knew what they were anymore. We got them reunited and they make a wonderful pairing. The collector value of these cases, if they could be sold, might be as much as five figures – but their heirloom value to us should be equally significant. However, someday the same thing will happen all over again and that will be that.

I can embrace the idea that what will be, will be -- I just don’t want to know about it when it eventually happens.

[spinmove_]

An interesting question-several factors and ways to look at this. To the contrary, the Brits(many of whom would be offended at being viewed as “European”) used revolvers,e.g., Webleys, through WW2. The Russians had the 1895 Nagant. On the Euro continent, semi autos become popular beginning with the 1896 Mauser through the Borchardt/Luger, etc. JMO, but I think part of the reason the semiautomatic became more popular is that it was more efficient and smokeless powder was up and coming. Lighter projectiles at higher velocities began to be rapidly accepted from rifle calibers on down to handguns. The military influenced law enforcement equipment in Europe. All sorts of makers made pistols-Mauser, Walther, Sauer, etc.
In the USA, revolvers utilized black powder-.45 Colt-and transitioned to smokeless as that technology developed. Recall that T Roosevelt was first a NYC Police commissioner, and issued revolvers. That probably had some influence, and revolvers were simpler to live with. There were individual exceptions in the early 20th century in American LE: some Texas Rangers carried 1911s. Some big city cops carried autos when allowed. But after the Kansas City massacre, Hoover wanted some gunmen, and men like “Jelly” Bryce came onboard and were revolver men. Other officers/agents like Jordan and Askins were issued/shot revolvers and wrote about them, further influencing US LE. The US military had decided on a semiauto after a dubious flirtation with a .38 revolver. Cops stuck with the revolvers ; if things got serious, shotguns, Thompsons and rifles were all broken out.
US LE agencies did not move to the semiautomatics organizationally until the 70s and 80s. I’m not sure why the Illinois State Police adopted a S&W auto, but they did and it was news. Officers thought they needed “firepower” in their sidearms, and it was off to the races...

So a strong cultural influence then. Makes sense. Did cost of manufacturing and/or ease of maintenance figure into any of that at all?

[1Rangemaster]

So a strong cultural influence then. Makes sense. Did cost of manufacturing and/or ease of maintenance figure into any of that at all?

I don’t have much data on actual costs/overhead, etc. In a general reading of history, to paraphrase Jeff Cooper: “the past was a different country”. There were, AFAIK, no unions initially. The Europeans may have had some sort of guild arrangement, but I haven’t read of any in firearms manufacturers. Eli Whitney inspired parts interchangeability, but it seems that mfgs. made parts, then gave them to workmen/gunsmiths(especially with handguns) who “fit” parts together.
I don’t recall the first cost of the 1911, but I’m sure it was less than $100 to the military. In my view, it was pretty “Glock like” in that it had pretty successful parts interchangeability, and even used some of its own parts in disassembly.
You may be on to something with maintenance; given a supply of near identical parts, semis are probably less expensive to maintain over time.

[11B10]

This is destined to be yet another great thread. Thanks for the history and insight.

Agreed....yet another thread from P-F providing the knowledge and experience of real life experts directly to the masses, of which I am a grateful member. The word "selfless" always comes to mind.

Thanks to all who have contributed.

[Bruce Cartwright]

Bruce,
Thank you. Glad to contribute what I can to a good thread.

By any chance do you recall if that redhandle was inscribed “Super Match” or something similar, or if it had high-visibility adjustable sights? Most of the pictures I have seen of the Supers appear to show standard commercial Colts with the small fixed sights, such as the photo on p. 15 of Vanderpool’s book. I have been trying to pin down if any of them might have been the Nat’l Match upgraded versions.

I cringe when I think of what the future holds for all the remaining heirlooms of LEO history spread throughout the field office vaults. We don’t know our own history, so things get destroyed all the time just because people don’t appreciate what they have. When I first showed up in my old office they were throwing out the old custom “Kansas City Trunk Co” cases from 1935 built to discretely transport in public a broken-down Thompson, its loaded mags and spare parts. They had gotten separated from the Tommyguns in the vault some years before, and nobody knew what they were anymore. We got them reunited and they make a wonderful pairing. The collector value of these cases, if they could be sold, might be as much as five figures – but their heirloom value to us should be equally significant. However, someday the same thing will happen all over again and that will be that.

I can embrace the idea that what will be, will be -- I just don’t want to know about it when it eventually happens.

EDW:
The 38 Super I observed did not have the Super Match roll marks. If I recall correctly it had commercial roll marks. It also had standard sights similar to Colt production through the 1970s.
As to the destruction of history, I couldn't agree more. There was a "cleansing" of stuff in the Quantico Gun Vault (occurred when I was stationed in DC) that would probably drive most collectors to drink. I am drafting a post about a revolver (5 inch N frame) I was issued that is highly collectible. As far as I can tell no one in the office had any idea what it was. Same thing with the Thompson cases. I was issued a Colt 1928 US Navy Overstamp Thompson in a period correct case. When I first saw it, the agent who transferred it to me couldn't believe I was speechless. For most of our folks, it was just another gun that had to be secured and inventoried. Most of our folks are good people, but are unaware of our history.
Wish I could have been more help with the Super 38 question. Stay safe,
Bruce

[deputyG23]

I don’t have much data on actual costs/overhead, etc. In a general reading of history, to paraphrase Jeff Cooper: “the past was a different country”. There were, AFAIK, no unions initially. The Europeans may have had some sort of guild arrangement, but I haven’t read of any in firearms manufacturers. Eli Whitney inspired parts interchangeability, but it seems that mfgs. made parts, then gave them to workmen/gunsmiths(especially with handguns) who “fit” parts together.
I don’t recall the first cost of the 1911, but I’m sure it was less than $100 to the military. In my view, it was pretty “Glock like” in that it had pretty successful parts interchangeability, and even used some of its own parts in disassembly.
You may be on to something with maintenance; given a supply of near identical parts, semis are probably less expensive to maintain over time.

When I was a child, I was given a 1944 Gun Digest which had the 1911 Colt Government Model .45 listed at $44.75.