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Thread: What if: Unarmed assailant charges while you're holding a long gun

  1. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giving Back View Post
    A buttstrike poorly executed has good odds of putting you in fist fight over the gun. Fights between are 50/50 at best. Muzzle strikes in the other hand, have a long, and illustrious history of being pretty damn effective.

    My opinion and worth what you paid for it. YMMV.
    I think I argued with you online once. ONCE! (Johnny Dangerously anyone?)

    Reading your posts over the years and paying attention to some of the places you have been and some of the things you have done have convinced me that when you talk/post I need treat your advice like gold.

    pat

  2. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mas View Post
    Rex, back in the 1970s Lt. Frank McGee, then head of the NYPD Firearms and Tactics Unit, told me their department had gone with the command "Police! Don't move!" The rationale was that "Freeze" was a mushy-sounding word, but the explosive consonants "P" in "Police!" and "D" in "Don't move!" were more clearly audible and distinguishable. It's been over 40 years, but if I remember correctly linguistics expertise and street cop experience were all involved in the study that led to the adoption of that specific command. I suspect John Jay College of Criminal Justice, which was tight with NYPD, was also involved to some degree.

    It made sense to me, and I've always taught "Police! Don't move!" for LE, and simply "Don't move!" for armed citizens. P-F members with NYPD experience may have more details to share on that.
    As a related note, this was not something that was addressed much in my academy (there was no FoF, Sims were for SWAT once or twice a year). As FoF became more accepted and worked its way into the Academy setting my old agency did some playing with commands. "Police! Don't move!" became the default. It IDs you, and then gives an exact command, one that allows adrenaline sprung officers to collect their thoughts before giving the next command. It allows the officers to determine compliance, even if only in the immediate moment. In the day of audio and video recording it gives a lawful command immediately after identifying yourself. They learned from FoF with untrained role players that things like "Police! Hands up!" resulted in motions for which officers really should have been ready. It frequently resulted in a suspect's rapid hand motions causing keyed up trainees to shoot the role player, while the instructions were followed.

    pat

  3. #73
    Site Supporter Odin Bravo One's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UNM1136 View Post
    I think I argued with you online once. ONCE! (Johnny Dangerously anyone?)

    Reading your posts over the years and paying attention to some of the places you have been and some of the things you have done have convinced me that when you talk/post I need treat your advice like gold.

    pat
    I don’t know about all that. I’ve been wrong as often as I’ve been right. On here, same as in life. We’re all shaped by training, knowledge, and experience. Mine becomes less relevant the more time goes on.
    Last edited by Odin Bravo One; 05-12-2020 at 11:46 AM.
    You can get much more of what you want with a kind word and a gun, than with a kind word alone.

  4. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giving Back View Post
    I don’t know about all that. I’ve been wrong as often as I’ve been right.
    Doesn't mean I won't have it analyzed before using....

    pat

  5. #75
    Site Supporter Hambo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giving Back View Post
    Muzzle strikes in the other hand, have a long, and illustrious history of being pretty damn effective.
    All we practiced was muzzle strikes, because our various telescoping/folding/skinny ass metal stocks weren't going to hurt anybody.
    "Gunfighting is a thinking man's game. So we might want to bring thinking back into it."-MDFA

  6. #76
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    My understanding is that most shotguns are not drop safe. If one were to muzzle-strike with a shotgun, what are the chances that the thing would fire? I'd think that would be problematic to explain...

  7. #77
    Site Supporter Erick Gelhaus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cacafuego View Post
    My understanding is that most shotguns are not drop safe. If one were to muzzle-strike with a shotgun, what are the chances that the thing would fire? I'd think that would be problematic to explain...
    1st, weapon on safe, finger straight on the receiver.

    With a shotgun, I'd go with either a buttstroke or - if you can do it - using the side of the receiver as the point of impact, by driving the side saddle area or ejection port through the desired location.

    I have done muzzle strikes with an M4 (weapon on safe, finger straight on the lower receiver) and they have been successful.

  8. #78
    Site Supporter Odin Bravo One's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cacafuego View Post
    My understanding is that most shotguns are not drop safe. If one were to muzzle-strike with a shotgun, what are the chances that the thing would fire? I'd think that would be problematic to explain...
    Never had an issue with it. The hardest I’ve ever hit a human being was with the muzzle of an 870.

    If you’re that concerned about it, use a muzzle snap instead. They’re effective for most folks. Full-on muzzle strikes are generally reserved for when a snap is ineffective or the circumstances warrant a strike.

    Keep in mind, if you’re striking hard with the muzzle, especially to the face/head area, you are teetering on deadly force. Close enough so that I wouldn’t want a jury of people too stupid to get out of jury duty to decide that.
    Last edited by Odin Bravo One; 05-16-2020 at 05:29 AM.
    You can get much more of what you want with a kind word and a gun, than with a kind word alone.

  9. #79
    Modding this sack of shit BehindBlueI's's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mas View Post
    It made sense to me, and I've always taught "Police! Don't move!" for LE, and simply "Don't move!" for armed citizens. P-F members with NYPD experience may have more details to share on that.
    This. It's also universal. Don't Move means you're whole body. I can "stop" moving and still move my hands.

    Quote Originally Posted by 0ddl0t View Post
    I like the unambiguity of "Don't Move," but I'm not totally convinced "freeze" is that weak (an exclaimed "fuck" seems pretty strong even if you were to stop yourself from saying the "ck").
    Fuck is strong because of the cultural connotations. It's the king of swears. Freeze is cartoony. Even worse, it is not literal. "Don't move" is literal. There is no translation into action required. When someone is running at maximum processing power trying to get through the OODA loop words aren't always processed. A literal command has a better chance of being understood under stress.
    Sorta around sometimes for some of your shitty mod needs.

  10. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giving Back View Post
    Never had an issue with it. The hardest I’ve ever hit a human being was with the muzzle of an 870.

    If you’re that concerned about it, use a muzzle snap instead. They’re effective for most folks. Full-on muzzle strikes are generally reserved for when a snap is ineffective or the circumstances warrant a strike.

    Keep in mind, if you’re striking hard with the muzzle, especially to the face/head area, you are teetering on deadly force. Close enough so that I wouldn’t want a jury of people too stupid to get out of jury duty to decide that.
    Not super concerned, just something that occurred to me. I had to hold a guy at gunpoint last month; I used a pistol, but 95% of the time in the particular situation it would be a shotgun, and I could easily see wanting to employ force, short of shooting.

    Thanks, sincerely, for the info.

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