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Thread: What if: Unarmed assailant charges while you're holding a long gun

  1. #11
    Modding this sack of shit BehindBlueI's's Avatar
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    For my state (relevant portion bolded):

    (d) A person:

    (1) is justified in using reasonable force, including deadly force, against any other person;  and

    (2) does not have a duty to retreat;

    if the person reasonably believes that the force is necessary to prevent or terminate the other person's unlawful entry of or attack on the person's dwelling, curtilage, or occupied motor vehicle.
    Unarmed or armed isn't part of the equation, only if the force is necessary to terminate the entry/attack. You are under no legal obligation to go hands on first.

    Outside the home/car you're going to have a bit less protection. If they are trying to rob you of your firearm, you have a forcible felony you can prevent with deadly force. If they are just silently jogging/drunkenly stumbling in your direction you better have something else to hang your hat on.
    Sorta around sometimes for some of your shitty mod needs.

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by LittleLebowski View Post
    You can beat the fuck out of someone with a long gun, just saying.
    Been to several FoF courseswhere if this wasn't explicitly taught the shooters figured it out pretty quick. It is a mindset issue. I have had role players grab my stuff for a couple of decades now, and many of them didn't have to be shot either. Those that needed it, got it. My old agency required a DT refresher before Basic SWAT and an annual refresher for SWAT members for just these reasons. I am not preaching anything legal here, not touching totality of the circumstances and reasonableness, just observations of decisionmaking under simulated pressure.

    Quote Originally Posted by LittleLebowski View Post
    Another great time to have a German, Belgian, or Dutch home security system.
    Right now my Belgian system is made up of The Beast with me rolling backup as supervisor and lethal cover. We need a second animal to complete the system.

    pat

  3. #13
    From a different thread regarding verbal aggression at gunpoint, but the overall sentiment of Todd’s reply I feel is applicable, just modify it to the proposed scenario:

    Quote Originally Posted by ToddG View Post
    If the encounter began or became a violent confrontation such that I felt the need to draw my gun,
    and if the guy continued to advance on me with the kind of attitude you describe,
    and if I reasonably believe he has the physical ability to disarm me or otherwise cause me harm (IOW, he's not a paraplegic or some other internet what-if extreme),
    and if I cannot extricate myself (and any loved ones) in a guaranteed safe manner,
    then yes, I consider him a lethal threat and shoot.

    Then I hire Craig Douglas as my expert witnesses to discuss whether unarmed people within arm's length are dangerous threats or not to someone who has (legally and reasonably) drawn a firearm in self-defense. And watch the prosecution/plaintiff try to find an expert who has seen a fraction as many such incidents from which to draw an alternative conclusion.

  4. #14
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    Study the relevant laws for your location and make your decisions ahead of time as much as is reasonably possible. Then it will boil down to judgement if the time comes.

    If I'm alone and have an intruder who is unarmed I might decide not to fire -- depending on the specific circumstances. But I trained in combatives for decades and I know full well that an unarmed person can still hurt me. If my wife is home my priority will be making sure there is no way in hell the intruder will get near her, so that will play into my course of action. Of course, she will also be armed and probably on the phone with the authorities.

    If a person is in my house at night, he or she will have already defeated a deadbolt or broken through a window -- either way setting off the alarm system. There will be some lights on in the house. Still, having a white light on your weapon and/or in your hand seems like a very good idea when it comes to heat of the moment decision making.

    If an unwelcome person is in the house during daylight and did not force entry (unlikely since we keep the doors locked), they will be strongly advised to do exactly what I tell them. If they charge me, I will defend myself and mine with whatever means I have at my disposal.

  5. #15
    Know your laws, know your capability. Act where your capability intersects with need within those laws.

    -Cory

  6. #16
    Deadeye Dick Clusterfrack's Avatar
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    An assailant fighting you for your gun is armed--with your gun.
    "You can never have too many knives." --Joe Ambercrombie
    Shabbat shalom, motherf***ers! --Mordechai Jefferson Carver

  7. #17
    Site Supporter Rex G's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clusterfrack View Post
    An assailant fighting you for your gun is armed--with your gun.
    This. Within arms’ reach, both parties are armed, even if only one weapon is present.
    Retar’d LE. Kinesthetic dufus.

    Don’t tread on volcanos!

  8. #18
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    Is the issue:

    1. The legality of the action?
    2. The tactical wisdom of exploring for the noise in the night?
    3. The actual 'fight'

    Well, know your local laws, study up on experts and the appropriate books and seminars.

    No - don't explore unless you need to go save someone in the house. Otherwise hunker down.

    In some FOF classes, in this situation - the preferred tactic was to arm up, call the law - loudly inform the bad guys you were armed and law is on the way. Then defend the safe room from a reasonable position. I recall that new guys would here the bad guy stealing the TV and go to challenge them. They were usually knocked on their butt and killed. Given our opponents were defined as economically motivated, if we hunkered down - they went away fairly quickly.

    Fighting for the gun. At the old NTI, we had a 'terrorist' attack on a courtroom. I was unarmed, the terrorist had me taken down but in a manner that allowed me to disarm said terrorist (according to safe rules of physical contact, so to minimize beating each other). I took the sims gun and proceeded to shoot the terrorist. After action, the ref team discussed if I was correct. Why not hold the person at gun point? My view was that the attack itself was still ongoing elsewhere. The terrorist was trying to retrieve the gun from me. The refs (SME all) decided, I was correct in such.

    As far as the Biden two shot gun, I've mentioned this one before. We were dressed in a smock, to simulate being naked in bed. No one needed real old fat guys or young studs prancing around naked. We had a coach gun and box of mixed slugs and bird shot. Then, the noise in the night and you had to negotiate the shoot house, with multiple life targets that could pop out at you, Surprise! You couldn't stay put as per the scenario.

    So, there are two targets, bang, bang! Then one pops out at me, next to me. What to do - butt stroke it repeatedly until the SO says You're good. Not a fun of low capacity, Uncle Joe.

  9. #19
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    Unarmed does not mean that they are not capable of causing death or serious injury. As others have mentioned, there are wide variety of factors in play. John Hall and Urey Patrick provide an excellent discussion of the topic including weapons, the role of physical ability, subjective intent etc. The third edition of this book seems particularly relevant to recent events.

    https://cap-press.com/books/isbn/978...-Third-Edition

  10. #20
    Site Supporter Rex G's Avatar
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    Obviously, Plan A would be to keep an opponent from reaching one’s long gun. Never hold a shotgun “at the hip” in a close-range situation; nor a handgun; that is a gun giveaway move.

    IF an opponent already has his hands on the weapon, and he is of equal or greater physical strength, and is pulling the weapon toward himself, one concept is to resist the urge to pull against his pull, but, instead, PUSH in response to his pull, which might well momentarily unbalance and/or rattle him. Perhaps, push toward his pull, and during a moment of his imbalance, shove HARD in a downward direction. This can give one a moment in time to get inside his OODA loop, and, perhaps, open the door for a strike, or, just maybe, trapping one of his hands, which can lead to another move.

    If an opponent has performed the classic move of grabbing both ends of the weapon, and then using his resulting greater leverage to windmill-twist the weapon away, well, again, rather than resist his twisting, violently move WITH his twisting, for a brief moment, then during his moment of imbalance, redirect the force.

    This is one reason I long favored a dense hardwood stock, or one of the dense synthetics, such as the OEM Marine Magnum stock, on my duty shotguns. This is not just about the classic butt-stroke. If an opponent’s hand can be trapped on the forward part of the weapon, arranging collisions with the upper or lower edge of a hard stock is a force multiplier.

    The instant that an opponent places his hands on one’s long gun might be a VERY GOOD TIME to have a knife or SECURELY HOLSTERED handgun positioned for quick access. This would be a good time to have familiarization with pikal/reverse-grip, edge-in.

    I am certainly no kind of expert. I managed to keep felons’ hand off my shotguns, while LEO-ing, so cannot claim anything I have said is battle-tested.
    Retar’d LE. Kinesthetic dufus.

    Don’t tread on volcanos!

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