My week long basic patrol rifle course in the spring of '01 had an afternoon of retention and countermeasures. It also had two days of classroom that included a bunch of dry fire. I am trying to recall if the last course I helped teach included it. I want to say it did, based on who I was with and where the course came from, but I was co-teaching another agency's course.Originally Posted by Coyotesfan97
pat
Butt strike or muzzle strike: is one more effective than the other?
I do not command people to “freeze.” That terminology was already a bad idea, when I started LEO-ing, in 1984. I never started using it. Now that I am retired, and therefore a private citizen, I simply want to them to stop, and then, probably, depending upon the circumstances, leave my house or yard.
Unless it it otherwise necessary, I would try to avoid blocking an invader’s escape route. Cornering a scared cat is a likely way to get scratched.
If he is charging, well, at that moment, house or yard makes no difference. I cannot run run backwards faster than he can move forward, and, taking the time to turn around allows him more time to close the gap. Oblique movement may be indicated, depending upon the circumstances.
Unless something in my yard is worth more than my life, I would rather not be out there. There are foreseeable exceptions, but, all else being equal, I would rather be inside the castle walls.
It would be simpler to explain to a grand jury, or trial court, why I shot an intruder who was inside the home, but, if I were where I had the right to be, and it was appropriate for me to be armed, at that moment in time, well, house, yard, or other place makes no tactical difference, at that moment in time.
To be clear, I am specifically not addressing the guy in Georgia, here, as it has yet to be determined whether his actions were legal or appropriate. I have, of course thought about this, as we have a house, next door, under construction, and a house to our west, within the same block, under construction. (Our neighborhood is being gentrified, and we are not, exactly, of the gentry.)
Retar’d LE. Kinesthetic dufus.
Don’t tread on volcanos!
One has to separate out the dominance response of protecting one's territory, the excitement of the chase or pursuit of the opponent from the reality of the situation. The sense of personal violation, refusal of the opponent to accept your dominance leads people not to avoid or retreat when they can. You MUST have submission.
Thus, you want to engage. Now, a police officer needs a person to submit to his or her authority. A FOF needs the incident to end well. Distance, cover, calling for help, getting the opponent to flee are all good things. Righteous use of violence to get submission can end you not being found to be righteous in court.
How preachy of me. My point being that you need to separate out legit threats to you of grievous bodily harm from insults to your territory. I recall in an Insights class, John Holschen pointing out that when someone doesn't submit the naive civilian defender gets closer and yells at the person more. Bad plan.
As far as the house visit. When we moved into our neighborhood under construction, my wife went to get the mail and decided to stroll into the new one under construction across the street to just to peek around. She was found out by the owner who also came by. Said owner was nasty about it but no gunfire ensued. Those folks were always nasty and stand offish, anyway.
I don't intend to close with someone. That happens when things go bad. Blah, blah - opining on a Sunday.
Situationally dependent. Each has a place in the tool box. Variables include grip on the gun (yours and theirs), equipment setup, environment, friends (yours and theirs), and a subjective assessment of what is going on. When setting up some active shooter scenarios I have a panicked, unarmed, hopefully small female role player run toward the responder and grab at the responder, not really trying to grab the gun, but not really avoiding grabbing the gun. Akido principles apply. When pushed, pull. When pulled, push. The gun can be applied linearly or circularly. And as a lever. And with leverage. And when all else fails, there are techniques to align the muzzle with your attackers body and trip the bang switch. Firearm retention techniques can be KISS simple.
In public I try to enforce a six foot foot rule (even before it was cool). It is soverign territory, and you need permission of the ambassador (me) to enter and conduct business. Many times this collapses to three feet or even less depending on my assessment of the situation. In my home (country) I believe I would be MUCH less diplomatic. You invade, I have far more to protect. I will defend aggressively.
In any and all assessments the decisions I take are my responsibility, and mine alone.
pat
As the bad guy in one evolution, I picked her up while she was attached to my carbine and walked around "shooting" everyone. She thought her weight would be enough to keep my muzzle down.
“There is no growth in the comfort zone.”--Jocko Willink
"You can never have too many knives." --Joe Ambercrombie
Yeah, that is when other countermeasures apply. If you can't control the gun, then by definition you have lost control of it, or have failed to control it in the first place. Time to work on something else. All the more reason to transition, or have a different mindset for a citizen and shoot sooner.
Don't get me wrong, my goal is to show that everyone running out and trying to grab on may not necessarily be a threat, or a bad guy. They may be someone you just have to get off of you while you continue to move to the threat.
pat
Last edited by UNM1136; 05-10-2020 at 03:17 PM.
Sorry, this should have neen the post quoted when I mentioned my initial patrol riffle course at the turn of the century.
pat
There is no one answer, for all situations. Among other differences, not all stocks are equally dense, and not all barrels are equally long, or of equal wall thickness.
Retar’d LE. Kinesthetic dufus.
Don’t tread on volcanos!
I am embarrassed to say that I am out of practice with them, but I see them as fundamentally different techniques with different applications.
The muzzle strike is more of a quick, easy to target, jab that lets you keep your strong hand pinned closer to your hip for weapon control; and that allows you to break a grab attempt, or alternatively trap and do a modified joint manipulation using the barrel. I feel like there is a lot more flexibility in the technique, but perhaps less raw blunt force.
Butt strike (at least, what I was taught at parris island) was more of a power blow, but you are exposing your lower body/torso/side, the weapon is much further from your center. You also need to be closer to the target. I learned it mostly as a setup for a bayonet slash. My rusty skills may be betraying me here, but it feels very much like the kind of strike that allows someone to get inside my guard and hit/wrap me up while I am winding up.
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