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Thread: IDPA - appendix carry?

  1. #121
    Member olstyn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Watson View Post
    I have seen it once.
    At least it was what the practitioner called "appendix." It was anatomically more nearly a navel carry, just to the right of center.
    There was a stage with a start at 45 deg left of the bay meridian, call it 135 deg around on the plane. So he was past the 180 the moment he grabbed the gun. His buddy the RO/MD did not find this a problem. So I was careful where I stood.
    As I understand it, this should only be an issue if the draw is being done incorrectly. I'm not sure I have the right words to describe it, but I believe that someone drawing from AIWB, if they're doing it correctly, should be able to draw right up to the 180 (well, 89.5 to one side or the other, however you want to describe it) without breaking the 180. Muzzle control is obviously super important, and I'm sure Mr. White or Clusterfrack or any of several others who have actual AIWB experience could give a good explanation of how to do it correctly, but I'm not going to venture to do that, as I do not myself carry or compete from AIWB at this time, so I've only visualized it vs actually doing it.

  2. #122
    Deadeye Dick Clusterfrack's Avatar
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    The Black Badge course is a good example of what I'm proposing. I don't know the details, but what I've heard is very good.

    Safety briefs in my experience are mostly useless. And, as you point out, the longer ones aren't better. That's not too surprising. USPSA is fairly complicated, and people learn complicated things best by example and in action.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wendell View Post
    In the United States, many states do not require completion of a safety course; some do, but many do not. Some sports do not require completion of a safety course; some do, but many do not.

    In Canada, per the Firearms Act, to obtain a handgun, the government has decided that an individual must take two safety courses (CFSC & CRFSC) before being eligible for a (restricted-endorsed PAL) license to possess a handgun. In Canada, per the Firearms Act, most shooting clubs require that applicants, before joining, first complete another club-level safety course. The CFSC, CRFSC, and the club-level course are all required by law. In Canada, IPSC Canada has decided that the completion of a Black Badge course is necessary for participation in level 2 or higher matches; the Black Badge, I think, is regarded as necessary to prevent unsafe gun-handling and to protect the sport. For the record, I do like the Black Badge course, and I do find it valuable for most participants, but there's no doubt that the requirement for a Black Badge (a two-day course that costs money, fills up quickly, and is offered only infrequently) also acts as a real barrier to participation.

    I shoot at matches where competitors were not required to first complete a safety course, and I shoot at matches where competitors were required to first complete several safety courses, and the truth is this: comparing the two, while the 'safety briefs' tend to be a lot longer at American matches, I really don't see much difference in the gun-handling.
    "You can never have too many knives." --Joe Ambercrombie
    Shabbat shalom, motherf***ers! --Mordechai Jefferson Carver

  3. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by Zincwarrior View Post
    In IDPA the crowd tends to be more normal, with bigger waistlines that make appendix carry less desired. Is this a big thing?
    and are wearing a 10 degree reverse cant IWB holster while also favoring a no look reholster. With their first attempt to reholster, they point the muzzle directly into their own lower abdomen and subsequent attempts they then over rotate and muzzle the entire squad. I don't think I have seen an RO call them on it either

  4. #124
    Deadeye Dick Clusterfrack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Artemas2 View Post
    and are wearing a 10 degree reverse cant IWB holster while also favoring a no look reholster. With their first attempt to reholster, they point the muzzle directly into their own lower abdomen and subsequent attempts they then over rotate and muzzle the entire squad. I don't think I have seen an RO call them on it either
    OMG I fucking HATE that!!!
    "You can never have too many knives." --Joe Ambercrombie
    Shabbat shalom, motherf***ers! --Mordechai Jefferson Carver

  5. #125
    Site Supporter miller_man's Avatar
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    You guys shoot with different IDPA shooters than I do. We do have a little bit of that but most the guys and gals i shoot with also shoot USPSA as well and are pretty decent, competent shooters.

    This was started in IDPA so don’t let it turn into full IDPA bashing. Stop making me take up for IDPA!!
    The stupidity of some people never ceases to amaze me.

    Humbly improving with CZ's.

  6. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by miller_man View Post
    You guys shoot with different IDPA shooters than I do. We do have a little bit of that but most the guys and gals i shoot with also shoot USPSA as well and are pretty decent, competent shooters.

    This was started in IDPA so don’t let it turn into full IDPA bashing. Stop making me take up for IDPA!!
    I enjoy both sports, for different reasons, no bashing here. I will clarify that my example is to a couple specific shooters, most of the people I know a who shoot IDPA are pretty squared away.
    I believe the safety argument is moot in terms of holster location. At it's core it is a people problem. People who are unsafe will be unsafe (hopefully they can be corrected) no matter where the holster is positioned.

    I think eventually we could see IDPA allowing AIWB, even the last few tactical journals have had articles with the virtues of AIWB.
    I can understand that there might be some reluctance on needing to design an entire rule set around a holster position. I don't think the allowance of AIWB will bring in a ton more people. Of the pure USPSA people I know, holsters are the least of their complaints with the sport.

  7. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr_White View Post
    I get their concerns but would like them to allow it. The last time it was brought up, the leadership seemed to double down on not just prohibiting AIWB, but making sure that charitably-minded match directors knew it wasn't allowed even at the club level for no score.
    There appears to be an AIWB-brouhaha that's recently occured at something like the club level. I lack details, and I don't want to assume.

    I've seen what looks like note from IDPA leadership that seems to confirm what we've been discussing. The primary issues identified are that 1) attempts to holster quickly/negligently raise the risk for a fatal ND, which would cause 2) liability insurance to become unavailable.

    I recently moved, and I've shot some local USPSA matches. There is an IDPA match about an hour away that I'd like hit up in either a month or two. I'm glad both sports exist, and I'm always happy to abide by whatever rules are in place. I'd like to see IDPA allow appendix, but I don't know how to overcome the objections noted above.

    I think that USPSA-appendix really is different from IDPA-appendix. There's not really any identifiable advantage, score-wise, (that I've seen) to shooting USPSA from appendix, particularly considering the allowable divisions. No one is shoving a .38 Super 2011 with a huge comp and 170mm magazine into an appendix rig, and while I can be convinced that there might be a person or two trying it with a .40 2011 and their 140s, I think the number people trying their best to compete while carrying appendix is far smaller than the number people looking for pressure-tested practical skill. There's a couple of people at the local club level who will shoot appendix, but their focus is developing carry-gun skill more than competing.

    I think it would be different with IDPA-appendix. While @jetfire has shown vest-OWB is equivalent to closed front-AIWB, I can see a perception that AIWB would be faster, and that a greater number of people, proportion-wise, would want to compete AIWB, and that the risk profile is different if it's one or two people not trying to win carrying AIWB, compared to half the competitors, all trying to win, carrying AIWB. I understand how it's possible to holster safely, without flagging, and while having positive lockout of a pistol's fire control, and that no one is holstering on the clock.
    Per the PF Code of Conduct, I have a commercial interest in the StreakTM product as sold by Ammo, Inc.

  8. #128
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    I can totally see why IDPA doesn’t want to do it. Just like most indoor ranges don’t allow drawing from a holster.

    I personally feel comfortable drawing from AIWB, but I could see how it would be a no-win situation for an organization.

    That being said, the local winter IDPA club is allowing AIWB (even though purists are having a stroke) which is where I’m going to play. Shooting just left handed (I’m a righty) because I want to train the other side.

  9. #129
    Member orionz06's Avatar
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    They remain free do to as they wish, but they're just getting further and further from reality, as far as defensive shooting goes. This is of course if they care about that. If they're cool with folks using competition specific gear, rock on.
    Think for yourself. Question authority.

  10. #130
    Member Zincwarrior's Avatar
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    It's a competition, not defensive training. As an SO, I would not be comfortable running a squad with an appendix shooter. By it's nature it's almost a guaranteed DQ, and I have no way of seeing the draw or safe holstering without being within the 180.

    Note shoulder holsters and ankle holsters are not permitted either.

    It's argued USPSA permits it, but I have never seen it at an actual match.

    I have no issue if someone wants to carry like that. But that's their liability. At a match it's the club and SO's potential liability, and I am not getting sued because Tactical Timmy shit for brains blows his own balls off.
    Last edited by Zincwarrior; 01-24-2021 at 03:24 PM.

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