IDPA - appendix carry?

[jeep45238]

Think of the average IDPA participant.

Think of the average IDPA SO/RO.

Imagine, after all this time, IDPA approves AIWB for those people.

Now imagine the club or the organization being sued after an injury/death.

“What’s the average age and experience of IDPA competitors? Do you allow those competitors to use modified guns with lightened triggers? How long was appendix carry prohibited by IDPA/your club? Does your club conduct personalized inspections of equipment or reholstering techniques? Did you foresee the potential for injury with inexperienced shooters placing modified competition guns down the front of their pants? Was that foreseeable injury the reason for the historical prohibition on appendix carry? Do you understand the risk of fatal or serious injury to be higher or lower as compared to carrying a pistol at or behind the hip? No further questions.”

You might think, but isn’t shooting an inherently risky activity? Don’t people sign waivers? Sure, those are standard practices for any risky behavior. But a club or organization for dangerous activity can expect litigation if they suddenly permit the participants to engage in a behavior that was deemed “too dangerous to allow” for several decades. It would be like a theme park allowing people to forgo using restraints on a rollercoaster, or a private racetrack allowing competitors to stop using safety equipment, race on worn tires, or decorate the track surface with debris or oil.

When a club or organization can no longer afford its insurance, it stops holding matches.

The thing I don't get is when a club hosts BOTH IDPA and USPSA (seems to be common) - and USPSA allows appendix.

[JRV]

The problem with this line of reasoning, from my not a lawyer viewpoint at least, is that several divisions in USPSA allow appendix carry, and as far as I'm aware, USPSA's safety record with appendix carry allowed is virtually identical to IDPA's safety record with it prohibited.

USPSA has always allowed carry forward of the hip for certain divisions. The AIWB-in-Limited trend is a newish development, but it is more of a “it was not prohibited by the rules” development, and not a deliberate rule change to permit that kind of carry. So, if someone shoots their junk, it can’t be blamed on a recent rule change made by an organization or club. I don’t think anyone can convincingly blame USPSA for someone going junk carry in a decades-old division with a permissive rule-set built around OWB race holsters.

I don't think you can really draw a logical conclusion that the organization as a whole (or an individual club) would be held liable or shut down on the basis of someone being injured or killed purely because of the detail of appendix carry being present in the situation.

Think about why the rule has been historically justified. Imagine IDPA (the organization or an individual club) makes an explicit rule changes to permit a style of carry where 90% of the people are going to flag their femoral while holstering into concealment, courses of fire that break the 180, people to run around with their finger in the trigger guard, allow ammo in designated safe area, or have people do one-handed reloads by shoving their guns in their belt-line and then racking off the belt. Those acts are prohibited expressly for a reason. Some are cartoonish examples, but it’s to illustrate the liability problem presented.

If someone gets hurt by an action after a permissive rule change allowing the formerly-prohibited action, and the action was prohibited for years as a safety rule... that’s going to be a problem.

Edit: I’m not against AIWB in IDPA or any competition. I’m just arguing that IDPA is coaxed into a bit of a snafu by its long-standing ruleset on hip-carry only. No shoulder holsters, no pocket carry, no cross draw. If they made a change to allow any of those given their historical justifications for decades of prohibition, they’d be double-secret screwed by an aggressive plaintiff’s attorney.

[TheRoland]

I'm generally skeptical of the liability argument. IDPA, as an organization, especially after the Pandemic, is likely not in possession of enough assets to be worth suing.

[olstyn]

The AIWB-in-Limited trend is a newish development, but it is more of a “it was not prohibited by the rules” development, and not a deliberate rule change to permit that kind of carry.

Not prohibited = allowed, meaning it has *always* been allowed in USPSA. Has anyone carrying AIWB in a USPSA match actually shot themselves? I feel like we'd have heard about it on this forum if anyone had.

[Clusterfrack]

...a style of carry where 90% of the people are going to flag their femoral while holstering into concealment.

No one I know who carries AIWB flags their femoral, or any other body part while holstering.

[cheby]

LOL!

I think I am getting smarter. Slowly.

[Clusterfrack]

I think I am getting smarter. Slowly.

I laughed out loud when I read your post. Then again when you deleted it.

Maybe we should start shooting IDPA again. I dare you.

[JRV]

No one I know who carries AIWB flags their femoral, or any other body part while holstering.

I have yet to see someone at a local club match — in five years in this area — holster any handgun IWB at a match without angling their muzzle inboard trying to find the holster mouth.

I know how to holster AIWB (hips forward, strong side leg back, cover garment held high and clear)... but think about the IDPA club match crowd. Half couldn’t roll a wheel down a hill without failing somehow.

[Zincwarrior]

I'm generally skeptical of the liability argument. IDPA, as an organization, especially after the Pandemic, is likely not in possession of enough assets to be worth suing.

It's not IDPA that's at risk. It's the club, range, and SO.

[Medusa]

I laughed out loud when I read your post. Then again when you deleted it.

Maybe we should start shooting IDPA again. I dare you.

I’m sure it would be salutary for some egos, but honestly I find most local idpa shooters, and for sure the ones I regularly squad with, some of whom I’d consider now to be friends, are just there to have fun and try to improve and enjoy such successes and improvements as we may find without any grandiose concepts of what it means in general, other than that likely we're better than we would be if we didn’t compete.

There’s room for all the disciplines and all the folks who can compete safely for their own reasons and at their own level.