A gripe

[LittleLebowski]

This forum is most certainly not giving Glock a "pass."

In fact, PFC is shedding a ton of sunlight on Glock's very real problems with the Gen4 9mms, dravz.

I've found that most serious pistol shooters like new designs. Folks are excited about the new Walther PPQ and the striker fired P30 for example. Most of us are not trying to "keep a good pistol down."

[dravz]

Are you not aware of Vickers and Hackathorn's observations on the XD? They do not recommend it due to reliability and design problems. That's not internet hate, that's arguably the top two smalls arms trainers in the world.

No, actually. I'd like to read it.

[dravz]

I didn't give Glock or S&W a pass. I said that the severity of the problems is different. A broken gun is a broken gun; the difference is that I see the XD as broken by design.

So people who carry Glocks have to be especially careful when reholstering due to the possibility of clothing, drawstrings, etc. catching the trigger and letting loose a ND. People who carry XD's have to be especially careful when manipulating the gun after an arm has been blown off because the grip safety may prevent one-handed locking of the slide. Yet it's the Glock with the great design and the XD which is broken.

Do I believe XD's are better than Glocks? No.
Do I believe Glocks are better than XD's? No.

Do I wish the internet's disagreement with a gun's design meant something other than the pistol is broken? Yeah, pretty much.

[jslaker]

No, actually. I'd like to read it.

I can't speak for Hackathorn, but I know that Vickers has been known to refer to it as a "Bubba gun." There are members on this forum that have taken classes with him that could probably expand on that.

[LittleLebowski]

I'll see if I can dig up stuff posted but everyone who has trained with them has heard the same. I took the Vickers Advanced Tactical Pistol class last October and Larry had nothing good to say about the XD.

[jslaker]

So people who carry Glocks have to be especially careful when reholstering due to the possibility of clothing, drawstrings, etc. catching the trigger and letting loose a ND. People who carry XD's have to be especially careful when manipulating the gun after an arm has been blown off because the grip safety may prevent one-handed locking of the slide. Yet it's the Glock with the great design and the XD which is broken.

One is an administrative handling issue. The other is a function issue when the user is intentionally trying to operate the weapon.

Again, I don't see the two as being the same at all.

[TCinVA]

Yet it's the Glock with the great design and the XD which is broken.

The 9mm Glock is an innovative design that, whether anyone likes it or not, changed the firearms industry permanently. They delivered a rugged, reliable, low-maintenance handgun at a reasonable pricepoint that has a proven record of doing the job in even the most difficult and abusive circumstances.

That's generally why the Glock is considered to be a "great" design, (note use of the term "great" and not "perfect") and that's why they have a large chunk of state, local, and federal law enforcement contracts and why they are found in the holsters of a number of units within SOCOM in the US and other elite military units around the world. It's not simply marketing or kool-aid.

XD's do not have the same record of performance. People who like their XD's don't like hearing that, but it is objective reality. It does not mean that it is impossible to purchase and be happy with an XD on an individual level. It does not mean that the person who bought the XD is somehow an inferior specimen unworthy of associating with others who own guns with an objectively superior track record.

After all, we're talking about handguns here...not Excalibur. Nobody gets crowned king because of what's on their hip.

That being said, there are still certain facts in evidence that do not bend to anyone's preferences no matter how uncomfortable those facts make them feel. Everyone is entitled to their own preferences and opinion.

We will politely insist, however, that no one is entitled to their own facts.

Please keep that in mind in future conversations and do everyone the courtesy of refraining from throwing out accusations about giving "passes", or similar nonsense. If you walk through the door disparaging the contributions of others and alleging coverups, you are likely to find that your reception will be hostile.

[dravz]

The 9mm Glock is an innovative design that, whether anyone likes it or not, changed the firearms industry permanently. They delivered a rugged, reliable, low-maintenance handgun at a reasonable pricepoint that has a proven record of doing the job in even the most difficult and abusive circumstances.

That's generally why the Glock is considered to be a "great" design, (note use of the term "great" and not "perfect") and that's why they have a large chunk of state, local, and federal law enforcement contracts and why they are found in the holsters of a number of units within SOCOM in the US and other elite military units around the world. It's not simply marketing or kool-aid.

XD's do not have the same record of performance. People who like their XD's don't like hearing that, but it is objective reality. It does not mean that it is impossible to purchase and be happy with an XD on an individual level. It does not mean that the person who bought the XD is somehow an inferior specimen unworthy of associating with others who own guns with an objectively superior track record.

After all, we're talking about handguns here...not Excalibur. Nobody gets crowned king because of what's on their hip.

That being said, there are still certain facts in evidence that do not bend to anyone's preferences no matter how uncomfortable those facts make them feel. Everyone is entitled to their own preferences and opinion.

We will politely insist, however, that no one is entitled to their own facts.

Please keep that in mind in future conversations and do everyone the courtesy of refraining from throwing out accusations about giving "passes", or similar nonsense. If you walk through the door disparaging the contributions of others and alleging coverups, you are likely to find that your reception will be hostile.

Yes, taken out of context I can see why your feathers would get ruffled over that comment, but we all know I was referring to the Glock's trigger safety and not its overall design. I completely agree with you the Glock's overall design is amazing and elegant, and is almost single-handedly responsible for the golden age of polymer pistol we are all fortunate enough to be living in. I meant no disrespect to Gaston and his creations with my remarks.

[Oscar 319]

FDA inspectors have. Numerous small depts have.

I am aware of individual depts who allow officers to carry the XD (personally owned); I know of none that issue it. I personally know of (work with) a few who had carried the XD, sung its praises, then wised up after experiencing various problems.

There is nothing that will change my opinion of the HS2000/XD. There are better options. Now, if I could convince certain co-workers about the Serpa holsters....

[LittleLebowski]

Yes, taken out of context I can see why your feathers would get ruffled over that comment, but we all know I was referring to the Glock's trigger safety and not its overall design. I completely agree with you the Glock's overall design is amazing and elegant, and is almost single-handedly responsible for the golden age of polymer pistol we are all fortunate enough to be living in. I meant no disrespect to Gaston and his creations with my remarks.

You can take it easy on the sarcasm now. Thanks.