Shadow Systems MR920--John Farnam's Take

[Navin Johnson]

I hope these guns are FAR better than Kimber, Springfield, and Ruger.

[Tokarev]

I'm not an early adopter, so that colors my thinking.

If Glock really had their shit together, or they weren't Germanic, they would have done all this already and Shadow Systems wouldn't have an opening. If Shadow Systems wanted to be Uber cool, they'd have put an SCD in it. If they'd include an orange JMCK AIWB with the pistol, half the forum would have one already.

Glock adding some similar "enhancements" would seem to be a no-brainer since there's now an entire industry devoted to improving the Glock. Why not beat them at their own game? But it took Glock until Gen5 to add an ambi slide release which is something other companies have been doing for a decade.

I guess Glock sells enough guns as-is without needing to change anything. In that case there's plenty of room for everyone in this market.

Sent from my SM-A505U using Tapatalk

[frozentundra]

I know John Farnam has also been a vocal proponent of the Springfield XD line of pistols. I've heard him group them in with Glock and S&W products when talking about guns that are 'good to go', so to speak. John probably sees a whole lot of rounds go downrange out of a lot of different pistols. I assume he is basing his opinions on first hand experience rather than conventional wisdom in these regards. And for the record, I don't doubt John's sincerity.


John's opinion aside, it strikes me that if you're going to attempt to produce a new handgun with the expectation that it would be simple, durable and reliable---a reverse engineered, superficially improved 9mm Glock is the absolute best way to accomplish this task!

The template is there, and with some of the older Glock patents expiring, it is there for the taking at this point. The engineering problems have been long solved, and you also get multiple decades of real-world field testing baked into the system for free. All you have to do is change as little as you possibly can. That's not to say they would automatically be 'as good as' Glock at making pistols. However, I'm cautiously optimistic about the future of 9mm Glock knockoffs for just these reasons.

The AR platform is a good example of this. A relatively inexpensive--but reasonably well executed--AR can run better than most other rifle designs in 2020. I'd trust a S&W Sport II far more than a Mini 14, Robinson XCR, ACR or even most FALs or AKs. I am hoping the 9mm Glock platform will become something like the AR platform during the 2nd quarter of the 21st century.

[HCM]

I know John Farnam has also been a vocal proponent of the Springfield XD line of pistols. I've heard him group them in with Glock and S&W products when talking about guns that are 'good to go', so to speak. John probably sees a whole lot of rounds go downrange out of a lot of different pistols. I assume he is basing his opinions on first hand experience rather than conventional wisdom in these regards. And for the record, I don't doubt John's sincerity.


John's opinion aside, it strikes me that if you're going to attempt to produce a new handgun with the expectation that it would be simple, durable and reliable---a reverse engineered, superficially improved 9mm Glock is the absolute best way to accomplish this task!

The template is there, and with some of the older Glock patents expiring, it is there for the taking at this point. The engineering problems have been long solved, and you also get multiple decades of real-world field testing baked into the system for free. All you have to do is change as little as you possibly can. That's not to say they would automatically be 'as good as' Glock at making pistols. However, I'm cautiously optimistic about the future of 9mm Glock knockoffs for just these reasons.

The AR platform is a good example of this. A relatively inexpensive--but reasonably well executed--AR can run better than most other rifle designs in 2020. I'd trust a S&W Sport II far more than a Mini 14, Robinson XCR, ACR or even most FALs or AKs. I am hoping the 9mm Glock platform will become something like the AR platform during the 2nd quarter of the 21st century.

Farnham has a thing for weird snowflake guns. Re; the XD, there is a cult of the XD among 1911/Gunsite people who dislike the Glocks idiosyncrasies. It predates the advent of the Thumb safety S&W M&P, which is a far better pistol.

Some of this may be that in the past both round counts and expectations of reliability were lower.

A good Glock clone that is cheaper than a Glock makes sense. I don’t see anything about the shadow systems clone that justifies the price,

[Tokarev]

I am hoping the 9mm Glock platform will become something like the AR platform during the 2nd quarter of the 21st century.

Glock inspired guns aren't new. Caspian made slides years ago and there was a metal frame made by CCF that used some Glock guts. S&W made a very near copy that Glock sued over. Aside from these, Lone Wolf and other companies have been making slides, barrels, and now frames. The 80% thing seems to be a continuing market too.

Shadow Systems started by customizing factory guns and offering some aftermarket parts. It was probably a logical and obvious choice to start making a complete pistol.

In addition to all this we now have Magpul making decent (user accounts vary) aftermarket mags. Glock mags have also been made by KCI and there were some metal mags made years ago by USA. I had a few back in the day. I don't remember them being of very good quality. Anyway, I suspect few would argue that part of Ruger's success with the new PCC is because it will take Glock mags. Buying a $500 carbine to save $15 on mags? Yup.

This all makes me wonder about "trade dress" and the idea that a company can own the style or look of a particular product. Ruger sued a Filipino company over trade dress of the 10/22 and they are suing TC over it now. I don't know why when AMT made a stainless 10/22 copy. Volquartsen still does. I think even Brownell's sells a 10/22 knockoff receiver. Why is Ruger not also suing these companies?

Maybe trade dress is largely part of why Shadow Systems chose to alter the exterior look of the 918 in favor of the 920. The 918 is obviously a Glock copy. So is the 920 but maybe not at first glance.



Sent from my SM-A505U using Tapatalk

[frozentundra]

Glock inspired guns aren't new. Caspian made slides years ago and there was a metal frame made by CCF that used some Glock guts. S&W made a very near copy that Glock sued over. Aside from these, Lone Wolf and other companies have been making slides, barrels, and now frames. The 80% thing seems to be a continuing market too.

Shadow Systems started by customizing factory guns and offering some aftermarket parts. It was probably a logical and obvious choice to start making a complete pistol.

In addition to all this we now have Magpul making decent (user accounts vary) aftermarket mags. Glock mags have also been made by KCI and there were some metal mags made years ago by USA. I had a few back in the day. I don't remember them being of very good quality. Anyway, I suspect few would argue that part of Ruger's success with the new PCC is because it will take Glock mags. Buying a $500 carbine to save $15 on mags? Yup.

This all makes me wonder about "trade dress" and the idea that a company can own the style or look of a particular product. Ruger sued a Filipino company over trade dress of the 10/22 and they are suing TC over it now. I don't know why when AMT made a stainless 10/22 copy. Volquartsen still does. I think even Brownell's sells a 10/22 knockoff receiver. Why is Ruger not also suing these companies?

Maybe trade dress is largely part of why Shadow Systems chose to alter the exterior look of the 918 in favor of the 920. The 918 is obviously a Glock copy. So is the 920 but maybe not at first glance.



Sent from my SM-A505U using Tapatalk

I didn't fully complete my line of reasoning with the analogy to the AR platform above. It definitely made me appear quite critical of Shadow Systems. That wasn't actually my intent. Sorry about that!

Going back to the AR platform analogy, I don't see any reason why Shadow Systems couldn't be a BCM or KAC of the 9mm Glock platform. They were companies that 'knocked off' (perhaps an inappropriate phrase in either case) Colt or Armalite or whoever. They simply took a good, standardized design--one that wasn't restricted by patents--and they did a good job copying it. They also added some desirable features/innovations/options that Colt didn't seem particularly interested in addressing and charged an additional premium. They did this without sacrificing reliability or durability. I don't know where Shadow Systems fits on this spectrum, and I'm not personally in a financial position to go see for myself, but I don't doubt they are 'good to go'.

As for Glock clones in general, and I may be veering way off into Dunning-Kruger territory here, but here it goes......

I think Glock has quietly--but purposefully--moved to transition the industry away from the 3rd Gen platform compatibility with Gen5 changes. Glock needs to keep their pistol empire dependent on current patents that are proprietary to their brand. If they can't get the market away from Gen3 quickly enough, they wind up with a potential AR platform problem. If it becomes financially advantageous for everyone to make a Glock like everyone can make an AR or 1911........what happens if Ruger gets frustrated with making completely useless auto pistols and decided to produce Ruger Gen3 Glocks? What happens if Mossberg and Savage start making Glocks?

If 3, or 5, or even 10 different manufacturers start making decent Gen3 'knockoffs' before Gen5 can sufficiently displace the old standard, Glock might be in a very unhappy position indeed. I think the success or failure of the upcoming Palmetto State Armory clone may prove pivotal in this regard. IF (and it's a big IF) PSA hits a full-on home run, it could start an industry-wide cascade of Gen3 non-Glocks to market within just a few years.

Gen5 Glocks may be the best Glocks ever made, but I think Glock was forced into changing the design by more than just competing for the FBI or military contracts. I think they want Gen3 to go away YESTERDAY, but they also can't afford to appear to stop supporting their product lines like Taurus or SIG.

[HCM]

I didn't fully complete my line of reasoning with the analogy to the AR platform above. It definitely made me appear quite critical of Shadow Systems. That wasn't actually my intent. Sorry about that!

Going back to the AR platform analogy, I don't see any reason why Shadow Systems couldn't be a BCM or KAC of the 9mm Glock platform. They were companies that 'knocked off' (perhaps an inappropriate phrase in either case) Colt or Armalite or whoever. They simply took a good, standardized design--one that wasn't restricted by patents--and they did a good job copying it. They also added some desirable features/innovations/options that Colt didn't seem particularly interested in addressing and charged an additional premium. They did this without sacrificing reliability or durability. I don't know where Shadow Systems fits on this spectrum, and I'm not personally in a financial position to go see for myself, but I don't doubt they are 'good to go'.

As for Glock clones in general, and I may be veering way off into Dunning-Kruger territory here, but here it goes......

I think Glock has quietly--but purposefully--moved to transition the industry away from the 3rd Gen platform compatibility with Gen5 changes. Glock needs to keep their pistol empire dependent on current patents that are proprietary to their brand. If they can't get the market away from Gen3 quickly enough, they wind up with a potential AR platform problem. If it becomes financially advantageous for everyone to make a Glock like everyone can make an AR or 1911........what happens if Ruger gets frustrated with making completely useless auto pistols and decided to produce Ruger Gen3 Glocks? What happens if Mossberg and Savage start making Glocks?

If 3, or 5, or even 10 different manufacturers start making decent Gen3 'knockoffs' before Gen5 can sufficiently displace the old standard, Glock might be in a very unhappy position indeed. I think the success or failure of the upcoming Palmetto State Armory clone may prove pivotal in this regard. IF (and it's a big IF) PSA hits a full-on home run, it could start an industry-wide cascade of Gen3 non-Glocks to market within just a few years.

Gen5 Glocks may be the best Glocks ever made, but I think Glock was forced into changing the design by more than just competing for the FBI or military contracts. I think they want Gen3 to go away YESTERDAY, but they also can't afford to appear to stop supporting their product lines like Taurus or SIG.

My understanding has always been that the reason the Gen3s didn’t go away when the Gen 4s came out was 1) the Ca market, and 2) certain contracts that still specified Gen3s because that was what was tested /approved/ “in the system.”

At least one of those contracts I’m aware of has transitioned to Gen 4 guns. If the CA could be overturned Gen3s would go away.

The other factor is Glock “perfection” really wasn’t so perfect. The Gen 5 guns, especially those with the new breach face cut really are a better mouse trap.

Honestly the other concern for Glock re: knock offs is that much of the Glock aftermarket is simply shit.

Besides the obvious cheap shit, there is quite a bit of fancy overpriced shit or unnecessary shit.

Shitty Glock clones diminish the value of Glock’s brand by association.

Imagine Glock was Dan Wesson making pretty good 1911s and building a reputation for reliability and then your patent expires and you have Taurus, Rock Island and a bunch of third tier Turkish shotgun makers cranking out shitty “ 1911 Clones.” Pretty soon people are saying “1911s” suck. Now Dan Wesson 1911s don’t suck but most people don’t even know enough to know the difference or get suckered by a “just as good as” gun store huckster or YouTube huckster.

As Stringer Bell showed us on The Wire, when your brand loses consumer credibility you need to wholly or partially rebrand.



Like the dope business, the gun business is about ..... business...

[Tokarev]

Just to clarify; the Shadow Systems pistol (both the 918 and 920) is based off the Gen 4 platform. The recoil spring is a single spring unit but the abutment in the slide is the bigger Gen 4 as is the corresponding shape of the dust cover.

It is true that there's a measure of crap in the Glock aftermarket but that isn't true in all cases. Like anything, some products are aimed to meet a price point instead of meeting a quality standard.

Shadow Systems seems to have found a middle ground of sorts. They are offering a pistol that's more expensive than a factory Glock but less expensive than a customized factory Glock.


Sent from my SM-A505U using Tapatalk

[frozentundra]

My understanding has always been that the reason the Gen3s didn’t go away when the Gen 4s came out was 1) the Ca market, and 2) certain contracts that still specified Gen3s because that was what was tested /approved/ “in the system.”

At least one of those contracts I’m aware of has transitioned to Gen 4 guns. If the CA could be overturned Gen3s would go away.

The other factor is Glock “perfection” really wasn’t so perfect. The Gen 5 guns, especially those with the new breach face cut really are a better mouse trap.

Honestly the other concern for Glock re: knock offs is that much of the Glock aftermarket is simply shit.

Besides the obvious cheap shit, there is quite a bit of fancy overpriced shit or unnecessary shit.

Shitty Glock clones diminish the value of Glock’s brand by association.

Imagine Glock was Dan Wesson making pretty good 1911s and building a reputation for reliability and then your patent expires and you have Taurus, Rock Island and a bunch of third tier Turkish shotgun makers cranking out shitty “ 1911 Clones.” Pretty soon people are saying “1911s” suck. Now Dan Wesson 1911s don’t suck but most people don’t even know enough to know the difference or get suckered by a “just as good as” gun store huckster or YouTube huckster.

I don't exactly disagree with you, but I think there are couple important distinctions to be made here.

Firstly, I don't believe that changes in the Glock platform have really been motivated by desire to produce a better, more reliable product than the Gen3. I think Glock 'innovation' has been driven almost exclusively by market pressure, and Glock resists it as long as they can.

This isn't exactly a bad thing; I think it's far better than SIG's product line jumping around with it's hair on fire. However, I guess SIG's flailing has innovated them into a good position with the present 320 industry situation. Glock's perennial failing to significantly address their ergonomic inflexibility has probably cost them here.

Secondly, I think the unending selection of aftermarket crap actually makes the 1911 and Glock platforms way more popular vs less. It certainly creates it's own set of problems, but I think it's the epitome of the economic (and maybe Biblical) 'Matthew Principle' at work.



Personally, I'm happy to see companies like Shadow Systems potentially filling the BCM niche for the Glock platform. Likewise, I'll be happy to see PSA fill the...PSA niche... for the Glock platform. I hope it cascades into AR-15 levels of manufacturing ubiquity.

[Texaspoff]

Shadow Systems is no different that what Wilson Combat did. They started out working over factory guns and creating some aftermarket parts. The decided why not get into the gun building market. Wilson began building his own 1911's and Shadow Systems is building their own pistol based on the Glock Platform.

I applaud Shadow Systems for not selling the MR918 and MR920 at prices that average folks can't afford, cause there are some Glock based pistols with prices that are obscene.

Does the MR pistols do anything a factory Glock won't, not really, but they are nice, and have a solid feature set, including better overall ergos than a Glock.

Ergos have always been the biggest issues with Glock pistol, otherwise guys like me, Bowie, Boresight, etc. wouldn't have a market for our business.

So if you fancy a factory Glock, cool, if you decide you want to spend the extra and get an MR series gun, good for you as well.

I own several 1911's, and I own a few Wilson 1911's. Do the Wilson's do anything better than my 43' Remington 1911, Nope, but it shure looks purtyier.




TXPO