General Thoughts on DA/SA Pistols

[Chuck Haggard]

I'd argue -- as someone who has very rarely carried a gun even capable of being carried on-safe -- that the benefit not only outweighs the perceived cost but that there really is very little real-world cost to begin with. Like so many things, the idea of "no safety = better gunfighting" resulted from a particular company's monstrously aggressive marketing campaign more than any real evidence of safeties getting people killed in gunfights.

The most experienced and professional operators I know -- in the traditional sense -- are all religious about running the safeties on their ARs, for example.

I thought you were arguing with me, until I realized you were agreeing.

The last sentence is pure truth. Down at the DARC course I attended Uncle Rich was rabid about guys going off safe when they shouldn't have. Paul Howe has written on this same subject as well.

I understand that the gun, as in the case with the 3rd gen S&Ws for many people, might not fit your hand which makes things difficult, but people not using a safety is most often due to not training to the level they need to be at with the weapon in question.

[cdunn]

I spent friday morning at the range with 300+/- rds doing 90%double action only,it helped some.

[Carraway]

I just want to say thanks for this. I recently went to a DA/SA after my striker-fired pistol broke and feel that I'm doing fairly well with it. I suspect spending time with revolvers (a .22 and .38) in both SA and DA has helped.

[Mjolnir]

Todd, after fumbling my way thru your class last year in Indy and addressing my horrid press out it dawned on me: "Doing as Todd instructed PROPERLY this would make shooting a DA/SA somewhat "easy". Well, I purchased an SIRT Pro Pistol and guess what? I shoot my Sig and DA HKs much, much better.

NowI cannot state why others' instruction didn't sink in. Hint: If they had used 2" dots and conducted the Press Out Drill as extensively as you did perhaps it would have. I'm sure of it.

Thank you for the instruction, the friendship and the excellent article!

[ToddG]

Glad it's working out for you M! The SIRT definitely makes difference.

[cclaxton]

When I first started IDPA, I shot SSP with the Cz75 Shadow, which means decocking manually prior to holstering the hot weapon because it is manual-safety only kind of gun. After drawing, the first shot is DA, and remaining are SA. I didn't carry this gun, so I didn't need to worry about the manual safety. Note that The first shot definitely was less accurate/slower when shooting IDPA than the SA followups.

Then, I went to FrontSight for a four-day handgun training, and they forced me to operate it like a 1911 running the manual safety on every draw. This was really difficult at first for two reasons: 1) I simply wasn't practiced, and 2) The manual safety had sharp edges and I was having difficulty using it quickly or comfortably. I solved the sharp edge problem by using a sandstone rock to gradually remove the sharp edges (didn't have the time for an armorer nor any tools as I don't live in the Vegas area). I think my thumb got used to it as well. Then, with all the practice they gave us at the 4-day training, I got used to running the manual safety. At that point, may as well shoot the Cz in ESP for IDPA and take advantage. Now, the only time I think about the safety is when I am "making ready" the gun for a COF or when re-holstering. Also, during dry-fire I sometimes forget it, but I never forget the safety on a COF. From a competition view, I am happy with the SA-only shots and content to operate the safety.

However.....

The Cz is not my carry gun. It is a 1911-style Kimber 9mm 3" barrel. It is SA-only, and I must use the safety. Every once in twenty times I remove the Kimber from the holster to put it on the nightstand or unload it, I will find the safety off. I am using a great Comp-tac OWB holster, so I know it's not the holster. However, it scares the crap out of me that I may have been carrying it without the safety on. I have no problem operating the Kimber safety and it seems to need sufficient force to take the safety off. But this is where I worry about an AD/ND. But I also have excellent discipline about the trigger finger...it NEVER goes on the trigger until I have drawn from the holster and am preparing to fire....not even during dry-fire practice.

I do LOVE the triggers on my Cz and Kimber, and I think it helps. I also own a Glock 34 (calm down Todd), and do occasionally run it in SSP. But I enjoy shooting the Cz and the Kimber better.

So now: Is safety a concern in my situation? There is some additional safety from the grip-safety, but question still stands.

CC

[nirol]

Todd, after fumbling my way thru your class last year in Indy and addressing my horrid press out it dawned on me: "Doing as Todd instructed PROPERLY this would make shooting a DA/SA somewhat "easy". Well, I purchased an SIRT Pro Pistol and guess what? I shoot my Sig and DA HKs much, much better.

NowI cannot state why others' instruction didn't sink in. Hint: If they had used 2" dots and conducted the Press Out Drill as extensively as you did perhaps it would have. I'm sure of it.

Thank you for the instruction, the friendship and the excellent article!

I'm glad you mentioned this; I had no idea Todd came to Indy! I see the upcoming class is full, so hopefully I can make it in on time for 2013 registrations. I ordered a CZ Shadow, so I've been keeping an eye on this thread to learn more about the DA/SA. As a fairly newer shooter, I hope this thread keeps me from forming too many bad habits that Todd has to get me to unlearn next year

[Lomshek]

So now: Is safety a concern in my situation? There is some additional safety from the grip-safety, but question still stands.

CC

My take - Any time a carry gun's mechanism is being operated by chance while holstered it needs addressed. A safety being deactivated is definitely an issue that needs fixed. You need to do some serious testing to see why that is happening.

At one time I had an IWB holster (com-tac) that I had adjusted to sit deeper in my pants (better concealment but slower draw). That placed the mag release button under my belt and a couple times I found my magazine had been released while I was driving. My fix was to have them make me a holster that fully covers the mag release button to protect it. No way was I going to play the "is my magazine in the gun today" game.

On topic - It strikes me that the folks who ask if the slide mounted safety on my DA/SA Ruger slows me down don't have much practice with such a safety. It does not add .001 to my draw time. In years of shooting USPSA I have never failed to work the safety. If a person feels that they are having trouble with the safety (just like with the trigger) then they need to either train more to master it, make the safety easier to manipulate or buy a different gun.

[boylit]

my wife took delivery of her 1st pistol, a taurus 24/7 g2... this thing was designed to shoot the 1st round DA then all succeeding rounds SA (unless the round doesn't fire or the decocker is activated)...

when i 1st took her to the range to fire it, i only gave her the 4 rules and how to grip the pistol... she shot alpha (the letter A itself) on the 1st shot followed by 16 other shots within 2 inches of that at 15 meters... on her 2nd magazine, she did the same...

when she finally took her 1st lesson, they told her that the slack should be taken up and that she should reset her trigger... suffice it to say, her shots were crap at 5 meters... at 10 meters, she'd have shots that were off the board...

we took a week to analyze what changed... it was the slack take-up... it took a week to unlearn it... last saturday she took a COF round with me and some friends... she did better than half the guys with years of experience shooting the round in 37 secs with 6 headshots (= 31 secs adjusted)... compared to a best result of 32 secs and 3 headshots (= 29 secs adjusted) with most going 33-38 secs with 1-2 headshots...

so long as she doesn't violate the 4 rules of safety, i let her shoot the way she wants...

[Tamara]

Every once in twenty times I remove the Kimber from the holster to put it on the nightstand or unload it, I will find the safety off. I am using a great Comp-tac OWB holster, so I know it's not the holster.

The quality of the holster is not the only issue. The angle at which it rides; where you put it on your belt; how much of your shirt (or you) puffs out over your waistband; the kind of chairs you sit in or the shape of the seats in your car; the amount of tension on the safety plunger and how positively it engages the safety... There are a host of factors that could be at work here.

I carried 1911s exclusively every day, from sunup to sundown, most always with ambi safeties, in an IWB at 4:00-4:30 for well nigh on ten years and I can count the number of times I found the safety off on one hand, even if I were to lose two fingers in a horrible lawn-mowing accident this afternoon, so it's not a given that the safety's just going to come off in the holster sometimes.

I can say that if I found the safety wiped off as often as you report, I would be looking at changing my heater or the manner in which I carry it, but I'm just risk-averse that way.